A Tribute To Ray 'Butch' Wilkins with Ross Wilkins

🎙️ The World of Lord Russell Podcast Talk Show

Episode Title: A Tribute to Ray Wilkins — with Ross Wilkins

In this deeply moving episode, Lord Russell Baker pays tribute to the legendary Ray Wilkins MBE — a football icon, a gentleman, and a man remembered with great affection both on and off the pitch. Joined by Ray’s son, Ross Wilkins, a successful businessman and passionate advocate for non-league football, we explore the life, legacy, and humanity of one of England’s most beloved footballers.

From Ray’s illustrious career with clubs like Chelsea, Manchester United, AC Milan, and The England National Team, to his heartfelt acts of kindness and his impact as a father, husband, and mentor — this episode captures the essence of a man whose influence transcended sport.

Ross shares personal stories, cherished memories, and touching reflections, including the remarkable tale of a soldier whose life was changed by Ray’s compassion. We also delve into Ray’s coaching journey, media presence, and the enduring respect he earned from football greats like Carlo Ancelotti.

This tribute is more than a look back — it’s a celebration of character, legacy, and love.

📺 Available exclusively on The World of Lord Russell Podcast Talk Show and The Lord Russell Baker YouTube Channel.

Transcript

Ross wilkins: 0:00

Foreign.

Lord Russell Baker: 0:11

Welcome to the world of Lord Russell podcast talk show and today's show is a tribute to Ray Wilkins MBE, which captures the life of a football player who was also a gentleman and still very much missed by all who knew Ray in both sport and personal life. Ray, of course, was a truly celebrated gentleman. Played for Chelsea, Manchester United, AC Milan, Queens Park, Rangers, Rangers in Scotland and of course the England national team with 84 caps, plan at UEFA Euro 1980 and the 1982, 1986 FIFA World Cups. Not forgetting of course, Ray's appearances on Talksport as a football commentator. Yes, folks, it gives you immense pleasure to welcome on the show Ray Wilkins, son and successful businessman with a huge love for football, particularly in non league. Ross Wilkins. Welcome to the show. Ross. Hello.

Ross wilkins: 1:06

How are we?

Lord Russell Baker: 1:08

We're all very good, Ross. We're all very good. It's an absolute pleasure to have you on the show, it really is. And what an exciting show it is going to be. I'm sure it's going to be fascinating all the way through.

Ross wilkins: 1:17

Excellent. Thank you very much for having me. I'm really looking forward to it.

Lord Russell Baker: 1:20

Yeah, you're absolutely welcome. It's a pleasure and thank you very much for coming on. So, Ross, let's start from the beginning. We always, always have to start from the beginning, don't we? What was it like having a famous top class football player as a dad? And what are your fondest memories as a child growing up in the footsteps of your dad, not forgetting of course, your loving mother.

Ross wilkins: 1:39

So I wondered what your first question was going to be to me driving to work this morning and that that kind of popped into my head as the one I would probably ask the most and I'd probably say mixed.

Lord Russell Baker: 1:49

Right.

Ross wilkins: 1:49

I think everyone has this perception that when you get brought up in a, in let's call it a famous family because at the time when dad was playing, he was very, very well known. Everything's going to be very hunky dory and very easy for you. And that's, it's far, it's much to the contrary of that, to be fair. I think you, you get an opportunity to, to live a lifestyle that many people don't. That's a fact. You get to be part and see behind the scenes of something that's quite amazing in terms of the industry that he was part of. But all of a sudden that comes with pitfalls as well. So for example, when you're in a job and you're sacked, you have to deal with that side of it when you're playing football and you break your leg or, or as, as it was with Crystal palace, then you have to deal with that side of it. I remember as a child sitting there, my dad coming home one day and he just had blood gushing from his nose and I was like, what on earth's happened here? I was only a young boy and he had his nose broken in the match and it just would not stop bleeding. Even after the match, it was still pouring out of his nose. So as a kid that was quite shocking to watch. So I think it's a very mixed thing to, to live through. I obviously moved around a lot as a child as well. You mentioned all the clubs there. Yes, he played for. So, you know, back here, I was born in 81 myself, so when he was at Manchester United. So I lived in Manchester for a while. I was then taken to Milan when he played out there, obviously for the family, that was an amazing achievement. But for a young child, just three, it's very strange to go from a Mancunian lifestyle into what was a nun school at the time and be brought up in that manner and learn a new language at the age of three, when you're just starting to converse and then go from that at 6 to Paris and then go from Paris to Glasgow and lose everything you've learned in the foreign countries when you go to Glasgow. So it's, it's quite. You have to be quite adaptable.

Lord Russell Baker: 3:38

Yes.

Ross wilkins: 3:39

And as a lifestyle it was great in one hand and on the other it was quite difficult at times.

Lord Russell Baker: 3:45

I mean, I can understand all of that, the traveling around in that way, the various cultures you experience as a young age. Learning Italian, for example. Fantastic. And then potentially forgetting it when you come back to Glasgow.

Ross wilkins: 3:58

Funny.

Lord Russell Baker: 3:59

Glasgow, yeah, good old Glasgow. Can't you know, lovely people in Glasgow got some good. So I've got to be very careful what I say. But yes, Scotland's lovely. But I mean, of all the schools you went to, what was it like at school back in the day? I mean, obviously in the uk, everyone would have known you as, as having a father who was a famous football player. I mean, how did that, how did that go down with school friends? Was it jealousy? Was there acceptance? I should imagine a mixed bag as well, wasn't there?

Ross wilkins: 4:25

Yeah, it was another mixed bag. So I think if I like what I found when I was younger, it was kind of less of a thing. People kind of mentioned the matches. Maybe because you were just getting into. Especially in Scotland. Glasgow is a real football driven city and I Think when we were up there, I was just starting to turn kind of, what, seven, eight, maybe nine. So you were just starting to understand the game a little bit, the rivalries that were going on between Rangers and Celtic. Obviously I was privy to every single home match there, which was an amazing thing to go and go and witness because you're right, the people in Glasgow, fantastic. And the atmosphere that stadium brings is phenomenal. Like, I went back to watch an old Vets game once and I could not believe the place was packed to the rafters and the noise that was coming out of it. You'd have thought it was a top Premier League match to go and win the championship. It was that exciting. So, yeah, it's a phenomenal place. But then obviously coming back down south when I think dad was at QPR later on in his life, where he was almost player manager, he had a really good season. The first season, I think they got just one place off of Europe he got them into. And then the second season they'd sold people like Les Ferdinand and Clive Wilson and the likes of, and they really struggled that year. And if it wasn't for a game against Manchester United, where I think United drew in the last minute, I think they might have stayed up. But they got relegated and that brought a lot of. A lot of heat on me as a kid.

Lord Russell Baker: 5:46

Oh, yes.

Ross wilkins: 5:47

And I really did feel that I wouldn't quite go to the stage of saying it was bullying, but it wasn't far off, that place. So, yeah, again, real mixed bag. Like, as a kid, it can be, you know, one day it's euphoric, the next day it can be hell on earth if you're in the wrong place at the wrong time, you know.

Lord Russell Baker: 6:02

No, I can fully understand that completely. That's why I asked the question, because it must have been a tough time, full of ups and downs. I can only imagine which you've just said. And you know, and of course you've got supporters at school who might be supporting Manchester United or dare I say it, Liverpool, who have a great hate for Chelsea, for example, when he was. When Ray, your father, was at Chelsea. So it must have caused some excitement in the playground, some, you know, positive and negative thoughts and feelings towards you as a person, I should imagine. Because it happens, doesn't it, on the verge of bullying? It does do, yeah.

Ross wilkins: 6:32

I think we're lucky. I was lucky when I was brought up because social media wasn't as prevalent, obviously it wasn't.

Lord Russell Baker: 6:37

Oh, that's good.

Ross wilkins: 6:38

So when you think back to. To Me, as a kid, there was no pictures being taken there. It was newspaper, it was new paper or teletext. Right. Less kids nowadays would be like, what the hell's teletext? Where you got your news from? Whereas now, if you look at it, you're. You're dealing with it on a. On an hourly basis, not a daily basis. So I look at, you know, Wayne Rooney's kids and stuff like that, like they're. They're all playing and at some point they're going to get a lot of heat, aren't they, and. And when dad steps out of line, it's going to be straight in the press the next day and you've got to go to school and deal with that, you know, And I. I feel for them nowadays more than what. What I would have felt for myself, for sure. Because I think actually now it would borderline be bullying, you know.

Lord Russell Baker: 7:22

Yeah, exactly. Social media is absolutely disgraceful these days, where it goes on sometimes, as we know.

Ross wilkins: 7:28

Yeah.

Lord Russell Baker: 7:28

Some players, you know, and individuals at clubs as well, just go through a lot of torment, don't they? It's just quite a worrying time with. With the way social media acts at times.

Ross wilkins: 7:37

It can be, yeah.

Lord Russell Baker: 7:39

But, you know, let's just talk a little about your dad as a gentleman. I mean, you know, cutting this piece in early, but we'll come back onto a bit later on when, after your dad sadly passed, Ross, an anonymous soldier called you and credited Ray for. For saving his life. When your dad took time to sit with the anonymous soldier on the street, gave him £20 and buy him a coffee. This is a great story the soldier told Talksport, and I quote, that night I took that£20 and I got some shelter and had a hot meal. This is a striking testament to Ray's enormous empathy and generosity to others, particularly where people are not so fortunate as we know. Can you tell us more about this particular kind act of kindness of Ray Ross? Because that is him in a nutshell, isn't it, really?

Ross wilkins: 8:24

Yeah, it really was. I think dad. Dad brought us up to be very similar as well, me and my sister, in that it's respect everyone around you, no matter what level you're talking to. He wanted us to be able to go in a room with dignitaries and be able to talk to them, or walk into the poorest place in England and be able to sit there and converse on a level with everyone. And I actually think that's something that's probably lost in a lot of people nowadays, that the ability to talk to everyone because I think it gets you so far if you can do that. He was, he was such a kind soul deep down. Like all he ever wanted to do was. Was help other people. He got himself in situations before where. Where he could have probably got himself out of situations, but rather than that, he'd rather help someone else out of that situation. And that's both at clubs and in personal life as well. So. Yeah, I mean deep down with the soldier. When I read, when I had heard that on Talksport, it was. I've got to be honest with you, me and my sister, my mum all cried her eyes out listening to it the first time. I can imagine it's quite an emotional thing to hear someone talk so wholesome. I think about. About your father, especially when, I mean to you like to everyone growing up, especially a boy to. To the dad. Yeah. You're strong one in your life, isn't. He's the one you look up to. He's the one you kind of compare yourself to or try and achieve what he achieved. Obviously in my circumstance that was very hard to do but the one thing I tried to do was take the lessons that I could, but I thought I could achieve from that, which is the way I converse with people, the way I communicate with people. You know, I'm. I'm quite comfortable with criticism. I'm quite comfortable sitting down with people and telling them business what I don't think is right. But I'll always do that in a similar way to how my dad would have done it in football and he would have done it with a smile, he would have done it with the right sentiment and that's how he was all through his life, no matter what he was doing, he was that kind of guy.

Lord Russell Baker: 10:15

Yeah, I agree with you completely. And what a way to be brought up. Fantastic. And as we all know, Ray had time for everyone, as you just said, and was loved by everyone he met both within the game and outside of it. And are there any other special memories you can recollect and share with us where your Rey. Sorry. Where Ray made such a difference in life to other people.

Ross wilkins: 10:36

So I don't know, it's very difficult. I think he was one of those characters, Lord Russell, that whenever he walked in a room.

Lord Russell Baker: 10:44

Yeah.

Ross wilkins: 10:46

I think it was much to the detriment of my mum at times because they'd go out to dinner together and it would be like Ray and he, he'd just jump at the chance of going and child like talking to people.

Lord Russell Baker: 10:56

Yeah.

Ross wilkins: 10:56

So there would be numerous instances, I think where he would have been how you just described and nothing really would spring to mind as a special circumstance. Probably that that story from the soldier is the one that I kind of go back to now because I think that does encompass him as an individual. Holy, like I said earlier.

Lord Russell Baker: 11:15

Yeah and of course that's the story that was recorded. I mean the other instances are similar actions from, from your father Ray of course that weren't, weren't recorded. So that was just a one off and there's probably many situations like that that he was involved with. I mean as you just saw I mean I, I, I've had some friends that when I used to go to La Cabana in Cobham where I know your dad Ray used to go. You've probably been there yourself Ross.

Ross wilkins: 11:37

I, I was there. It's now the IV in Cobham.

Lord Russell Baker: 11:40

Oh it's near the Ivy now. That's not so good. It was great when it was the, the, the former, its former self and I can remember friends going in there and said oh I saw Ray Wilkins in there this evening. I just had to say hello Ray and he just jumped up, shook my hand and started talking and surprised people because that's just the way he was, wasn't it?

Ross wilkins: 11:58

Yeah, I think he, he loved that engagement with the fans and I think actually in latter life it was probably one of the things that that kind of killed him the most was that he found that he wasn't as well known with like the younger audience that was coming through and stuff like that. So there was less and less of that going on. And when he was out the game, out of management, out of coaching, I think he found that and I think footballers in general find that adulation miss quite a big thing to deal with whether they feel it or know it. I think it happens like naturally because it's, it's par for the course. It's very, must be very strange when you're walking down a high street and everyone's going off. High Ray, high Rey high Rey. I remember going bowling as a kid kid in, in at Rains park there's a David Lloyd there and they used to have a little bowling alley in there and he used to take us in there. He'd, he'd get stopped four or five times during the game just for an autograph or a photo. So to go from that to then going to complete polls, no one knowing you not, it must be a very strange sensation and it's definitely something that mental health wise I think a lot of sports people, the top sports People anyway, have to deal with and have to find a kind of way through. And I'm sure the younger crop that have now become the older crop of the Chelsea team have passed, are starting to find that although they can find that fame through social media and that interaction through social media now. So, again, that was different for him. But, yeah, like, he was. He was larger than life. He would always. He would always be there signing autographs after training. He always encouraged the younger kids to do that as well. Where they kind of didn't want. And they wanted to put the headphones on and walk away was always like, no, no, come on, there's young kids out here, we need to go and do that. He was the first to put his hand up to go to the children's hospices at Christmas and the visits there because he. He just felt that if he could give a back and it made someone else's life better for that one minute, why not do it? I think it's a nice sentiment to live by.

Lord Russell Baker: 13:49

I totally agree. And it's a lovely memory you've got, really, of your father, Ray there, isn't it? The person he was. It's fantastic. I mean, in more recent times, you did reveal that life without your father Ray, of course, hasn't got any easier. This I personally understand very well because I've lost both my parents. I lost my first wife as well going back. So I've been through these situations. And was especially hard for you in 2020 due to the coronavirus lockdown guideline. Crikey. It was hard for everybody, which prevented you from visiting your mother. Shocking. I mean, this time must have been really heartbreaking, Ross, not just for you, but for your mother as well. It was a breakup of families, wasn't it?

Ross wilkins: 14:26

Yeah, I think it was hard for a lot of people, wasn't it? It wasn't in that circumstance. That period of time is one that I personally wouldn't want to see ever again. Whilst I know a lot of people saw it as they got a little rest from work and got paid a long paid holiday, there were a lot of people that also suffered a lot of pain during that time and they were dealing with pain during that time and weren't being able to comforted by family and stuff like that. Luckily for us, eventually I think Mum came and stayed with us for. For a longer period of time, so we kind of got through that as a family. But yeah, I think mental health wise, I. I struggled. I don't really overtly struggle with it, but I know when I'm struggling with it. And I found a charity through Talksport actually called Strongmen. The two guys that founded that, Ephraim and Dan at the time. And we just got talking and I joined forces with them. We did some charity stuff. And I still work with them now. And I think that was one way that I managed to turn a real negative into a positive. From being really honest, I think out of every negative can come something good, but you really have to work hard at that and make that work for you. So, yeah, personally, I did feel a lot of pain. I still do. I think we always meet people that are close to us. I think people need to understand as well that loss is based on what your relationship's like as well. So for me and my dad, obviously, we moved around a lot as young children. I looked up to him immensely. He was. Was best man at my wedding, above all my mates. That's how close we were. So it was not just losing a father, it was almost like losing a best friend at the same time. And I think that that can hit doubly as hard. And I think, yeah, I mean, there's people that don't talk to their dads, right. And then when they die, they feel that loneliness and sadness. Great. But if you haven't had that relationship that I had, it's always hard to kind of bridge that gap. And, you know, now I put my heart and soul into my children and what they're doing.

Lord Russell Baker: 16:18

Excellent.

Ross wilkins: 16:18

Give them the best life possible. And you divert attention, I think, don't you, to. To other things like business and stuff like that.

Lord Russell Baker: 16:24

So, yeah, you have to. And it's just. It's just a way of moving forwards in life, isn't it, really? Other things take over. You know, you've got young family, as you say, business. They're all important aspects to your life and they. They do help, don't they? They get you through those emotional sort of traumas that potentially you could. You could sink into. You never had those moments around you.

Ross wilkins: 16:41

Yeah, you hit the nail on her there. By the terminology you use, moving forward. I think a lot of people, you have to move on. You move on.

Lord Russell Baker: 16:47

You do.

Ross wilkins: 16:47

You don't move on from a loss. You move forward day by day, forward, slowly, by throw it. And it's a. There's a big difference between that. Moving on from someone is almost like forgetting about. I'm like moving on completely. You don't. You. You always remember them. There's not. I don't think there's a day gone past that, that since dad's past, in all those years now where I haven't actually. He hasn't come into my head at some point. So, you know, for me, I haven't moved on from him. I've just learned how to live a new life without him there. So yeah, it's important. And you know, without that charity strongman being a part of, I don't know what, what place I would have been in now, to be honest. They were really great and I'd implore anyone to go and look at them if they're suffering with grief or anything like that because it's, it's a brilliant charity.

Lord Russell Baker: 17:31

Absolutely. I think not just, I mean any charity is a good charity. You got issues, mental health issues or grief. It's great to you know, get yourself evolved with a charity subdescription because you can see the other side of the fence. Other people are suffering, you can help and it helps you get through, doesn't it mentally helps you get through that battle. I think so. It's a very valid thing to say.

Ross wilkins: 17:50

Absolutely.

Lord Russell Baker: 17:50

You know, I congratul, congratulate you on that.

Ross wilkins: 17:52

No, thank you.

Lord Russell Baker: 17:53

Yeah, brilliant. That's a fantastic story. Besides being a true gentleman, Ray Wilkins, of course your dad was, was also an extraordinary footballer. And Ross, you quoted. Looking back at it, I can see just how good a player Ray was. I couldn't fully appreciate it at the time. I mean, Ross, you also added, it is quite phenomenal what Ray achieved in such a short career. We'll shortly get onto your dad's football and media career of course, but what else can you, you test me up raise a man than husband and gentleman. Apart from what you've already just said, you've probably covered most of the things now, I should imagine.

Ross wilkins: 18:25

Yeah, I think, I think we're pretty much covered on that front. I mean going to that bit where you, you mentioned like I didn't really truly appreciate it. I think when you're growing up in the bubble that is your young, your very own family, you, you're just living the life that you think is normal, right? Yeah, it was normal for me to get up on a Saturday morning, him to be eating a pre match meal and then go to watch professional football. That, that was. And then eventually it became a Wednesday thing and Sunday obviously when we were in, in Italy. So it was only probably when I got to like 16, 17 and was playing kind of youth football myself at a half decent level that I really started to look at like what dad's career was like and and what he'd achieved and the standard I was getting to, I was thinking I was doing quite well. But then you think of all the levels above that standard to where he. And he did it at Chelsea at 17 and a bit. So as captain.

Lord Russell Baker: 19:23

Yeah.

Ross wilkins: 19:23

Which I don't think will ever be beaten again, to be fair. I don't think there'll be. Ever be a Chelsea captain at the age of 17. Not unless they're really exceptional. So I started to compare my own standing in life at 16 and a half to where he was 17. And it was. Wasn't a very good thing to do, to be fair, because that's quite more alive than.

Lord Russell Baker: 19:42

You could probably put yourself down a bit, didn't you, really? Probably give you some mental. Mental issues moving forwards.

Ross wilkins: 19:47

There was some anguish there, that's for sure.

Lord Russell Baker: 19:51

Well, I mean, but at least you recognize that. I mean, you know, I always remember we get onto your dad now, obviously, with his sporting traditions, but he had a phenomenal football mind, didn't he? He was leaps ahead of everybody. He could think, you know, a dozen moves ahead of everybody else in the game. He knew where people were going to be. He made his space, his timing. He is exquisite on the ball. His feet were just incredible. I mean, it's just. He was just a superb football player, wasn't he? To be honest?

Ross wilkins: 20:17

Yeah. I mean, he's Pep Guardiola's dream, isn't it? Like. Yeah, he would have fitted into a Pep Guardiola team like no one's business, because like you said, the way he scanned before he received the ball, he knew where it was going. He'd play passes before people even got near him around the corners. And he was quite far ahead of his time and somewhat, I think, early on in his career, maybe when he went to Man United, somewhat underappreciated at points in terms of just how good he was. I think there was a lot of negative in the press about him passing sideways and. And not creating. But for him, it was a. It was a game of possession. So it was about binding your time. Exactly. He learned a lot of that in Italy, I think, where it wasn't as rush as the English game was. It was. It was a more methodical approach to. To defending and then moving forward and progressing the ball up pitch and. And wanted to bring that back to. To kind of the English game at some point, because he thought. Thought that is how it needs to be played. Like we need to start matching what the European teams are doing and then bettering it to Become a better all round side. So, yeah, he had this ability to do it and I think ever since he started playing, I mean, when he was very young, he was scoring goals for Chelsea, he was a pretty good goal scorer. And then he turned into this player that was more of a creator and he was more known for what he'd assist and obviously back in those days, assists weren't counted for anything. But if you were to get. I don't know if you could even pull an assist record for Ray Brook in his career, but I don't think one exists.

Lord Russell Baker: 21:48

I've checked.

Ross wilkins: 21:49

It would be quite phenomenal, I would think, if you, if you actually, I mean, just ask Les Fernand and Kevin Galland at QPR alone, like the amount of balls he put in for them to score from would have been phenomenal. So, yeah, I think he was very much ahead of his time. His career was one that was, should, should be well celebrated because I think, I think so what he achieved was phenomenal, really.

Lord Russell Baker: 22:10

I mean, that sideways game, as you say, what you developed more so at Manchester United is exactly how Barcelona ended up playing football. Pep Guardiola style of football, and probably the sort of style of football that was being played in the Premier League up until last season has changed a little bit this year. Yeah, but so, yeah, definitely ahead of the game, definitely. Without doubt.

Ross wilkins: 22:26

Yeah. It's keeping possession. Right. So he used to talk to the Chelsea boy. I think it was a Chelsea boys he used to talk to in training about treating the ball like a baby. He said he'd never give your baby to anyone, would you? So why are you going to give the ball? And he used to joke with it, but it was all about keeping the baby. And, and it was a good theory because if you've got the ball, you can only do a positive thing with it eventually, which is score. If the opposition don't have the ball, they can't hurt you. So.

Lord Russell Baker: 22:51

Exactly.

Ross wilkins: 22:52

Yeah, it just made sense the way he played Cluff.

Lord Russell Baker: 22:54

That's what Brian Clough once said, isn't it? You know, if you've got the ball, your opposition can't score. So keeping hold of the ball is a key thing. That's a Brian Clough philosophy too. So, you know, he probably would have done well with Brian Clough, wouldn't he, actually?

Ross wilkins: 23:07

Yeah, probably.

Lord Russell Baker: 23:09

But, you know, Ray was born into a footballing family, of course, with his father and three brothers involved in the game. I mean, what memories do you have about your, your granddad, of course, and raised other brothers, two of which Graham and Steve were also at Chelsea with Ray, weren't they?

Ross wilkins: 23:24

Yes. Obviously that was a part of my. My life where I wasn't even born. Of course, them all being at Chelsea. So I only know what. What really my Uncle Graham's told me, which was he was the better out of all of them. Nicknames.

Lord Russell Baker: 23:38

Got a nickname, isn't he? What's his nickname?

Ross wilkins: 23:41

He's got a few, I think. No, Graham, according to everyone I've spoken to, could have been a phenomenal footballer. Everyone said he was. He was brilliant at what he did. And I was very fortunate when. When dad couldn't play in the. What was the old Chelsea bets team in the end.

Lord Russell Baker: 24:02

Yes.

Ross wilkins: 24:02

I'd get INV along to playing some of those matches with some of the old boys. Wow.

Lord Russell Baker: 24:06

Lucky you.

Ross wilkins: 24:07

Yeah. And sometimes a couple of games I played in front of Graham, I think against Southampton at one point. And the amount of talking he did through the game, even though he hadn't played it himself for so long, it was phenomenal to play with someone like that that just knew it inside out. There was a great story and I don't know the game that it was that dad got crunched. It might have been against Leeds or something at Stamford Bridge. And Graham was on the bench and he got asked to come on the pitch and he was going on at left back and someone asked him to switch to right back. Graham walked on, told the right back to switch out the other way just so he could go and nail the guy that had nailed that. I think they had a brotherly. They had a brotherly love there. That would have been great to watch grow up. But unfortunately Graham's career was cut short through injury, which was a shame. But he remains a fantastic bloke. I saw him, what, two, three months ago, go, we had a brilliant.

Lord Russell Baker: 25:00

We'll give him my regards. I do remember watching Graham play left back for Chelsea and of course Ray in the middle there and that great sort of youthful Chelsea side at the time. It was brilliant, wasn't it?

Ross wilkins: 25:11

Absolutely lovely team, didn't they, back then? When you look at it, I see some of the old videos from it and stuff and I obviously talk to people around that era. Yeah, they had a great young team that there. Phenomenal.

Lord Russell Baker: 25:21

They did have a great young team. Of course. I was with Stevie Wick just the other week of course as well. Who was in that team with. With your dad, Ray and you know, talks so favorably about Ray as everybody does. I mean, Steve Wicks, what a lovely man. He Is too absolute gentleman as well.

Ross wilkins: 25:34

But they always weren't they like when you talk to all those guys, they were such great guys. I remember walking into the dressing room and Mickey Draw. We was at Fulham for a. Mickey Joy was standing there with a cigar in his mouth. I didn't know him from Adam at the time. And everyone introduced me as Ray Wilkins and son and. And he just went, well you better be better than your ****** dad. And took his cigar out, put it back in again. Just. Just great characters. And I think actually when you look at the game now, I don't know whether it is social media or the way the media is in general with the players, but it doesn't seem to be those characters there was back then in the game anymore. You know, it's a bit of a shame really now.

Lord Russell Baker: 26:13

It's a huge shame. Shame. And I can remember speaking to Teddy Maybank, of course, or he loves to be called Ted Maybank these days, not Teddy, but he was saying, you know, half time in the winter we'd often have a glass or two of cognac or a rum to warm us out to go out in the second half. And I thought, you know what, that sometimes explains some of Chelsea's erratic second half displays going back. It was such an interesting thing to know about and hear, but that's what Teddy Maybank told me. And I thought, well that's brilliant, isn't it? And that would never happen today, let's be honest. That's the game.

Ross wilkins: 26:44

I've got to be honest, I don't think it should happen.

Lord Russell Baker: 26:46

No, it shouldn't. Even though I totally agree. Especially the likes of Chopper Harris. I mean, you know, it probably meant some of his tackles went a bit wayward as well in the second half form of first. But ye great times though. I mean we said it already. But Ray, your dad of course played as midfielder and he began his professional career at Chelsea in 1973, obviously long before you were born. Good. Nine years, eight years before you were born. What did Ray talk to you about later in life about his time at Chelsea between 73 and 79? I mean I think there were some of his favorite times, weren't they? Playing his playing days. That was a great side. As we just mentioned, some of the players in that side were phenomenal. You know, crikey, Gary Stanley, what a player he was. I mean he just, he just lists that side out and they should have won more than they did. And I think when they got promoted in 1978, if I remember, if they'd have had the same investment into the side as Nottingham Forest did. It wouldn't have been Nottingham Forest that had won the first division title and gone on to European success. It would have been Chelsea with that side.

Ross wilkins: 27:46

I think he felt that they were close, you know, to be in a. To be in a really, really top team. But there obviously wasn't that investment. I mean, you're going back to a time where the players in, in downtime during pre season would go and paint a stadium, you know. Yes, that, that's something that players nowadays would never be doing in a million years. You know, when they were apprentices in YTS back then, they were. They were cleaning the boots of the professional players. You know, again, something that doesn't happen nowadays. So it's a very different era. I always find it hard and I don't think people should actually ever do it. In comparing eras and players and st. I just don't think it works. But he always felt that they were close, close to being great team and they probably a little bit investment and maybe one or two to come in and they could have gone on and achieved more, like you said. So, yeah, he. But when you talk about memories and no matter what club he'd been at, I mean he, he adored his time in Italy, I think him and my mum, that's probably the happiest they've been whilst they were moving around. And he talks so fondly of Glasgow Rangers. Just the characters up there, the people he played with and that squad, when you look back at that on paper, was absolutely phenomenal. Then there was the, the kind of QPR days where he went from a player to player, manager to manager and again, characters all over the place in that team and he, he loved them fondly. But deep down, no matter which one you tried to sway him on, it was always Chelsea that won and you kind of, you kind of saw that come through. I think in his latter years in the punditry side of it, where he wasn't biased, but if it was Man U Chelsea, he would try and stay as. As absolutely, you know, empathetic to both as possible. But he had always leaned that slightly towards Chelsea all the time. And myself, I'm a Manchester United fan, so that I found that quite difficult and we used to have quite a lot of combative chats, always say in our family between and those games were going on.

Lord Russell Baker: 29:45

Absolutely. That would have been an interesting. Well for me, I'd like to have been a fly on the wall listening to that. That would have been Quite an interesting debate to witness, I'm sure. And of course, you know, in 1975, I remember this because I think one of the first games I ever went to at Charleston was in 75 or that season, 74, 75. I went to Derby county at Stamford Bridge. I sat in the west stand, hardly anybody there on an evening on the benches. Remember the benches at Stamford Bridge and watching Chelsea lose 21 at home to Derby county. And De county in those days were top side. But in 1975, following Chelsea's relegation, I mean, crikey, I was in tears. And the departure of many established players. Ray Wilkins, your father of course, at the tender age of 18, you mentioned it early earlier in the show, was handed the captaincy of Chelsea by new manager Eddie Macready. What a player. He was taken over from the longtime Blues captain John Hollins. Another four, you know, fantastic star loss. Of course now sadly, Ray took the role. Well, staying as captain for four years. I mean, what stories can you remember about Reyes, captain of Chelsea? You weren't alive, you weren't around. But what did you hear from various people around at the time that you.

Ross wilkins: 30:54

Got to, I mean, got to befriend from a. I, I watched a video back of him doing a Match of the Day interview and it was, I found it hilarious because he's got this like high pitched squeaky voice on it and you're just sitting there going how at 17, 18 is he captain as a top side like that? And, and I think he took it, it. Everyone I spoke to always said that he was obviously naive to certain things that were going on back then because he was boy at the end of the day, young man starting his career. But, but he showed great maturity at the same time beyond his years. And I think that was his footballing brain kicking in. I think he was able to. Whether he could lead by example at that period of time with his voice, maybe not so much, but by what he did on the pitch with the ball. I think that's where he, his captaincy kind of, of really started to take to the fore. And then obviously as he got older, he learned how to communicate properly and, and he ended up the master at that side of things as well. So I think Chelsea gave him a phenomenal grounding which probably put him on the pathway to, to his future career. You know, like without, without that grounding he had there and that opportunity to be captain. Who knows, you might not have quite achieved the, the heights you achieved, you know.

Lord Russell Baker: 32:06

Exactly. And sometimes being pushed out of your Comfort zone into a non comfortable position is a good position for you because it happens, actually creates you as a person, gets your strengths, build you the extra pieces in your life. You need the jigsaw puzzles you can start putting together. So I think it's a brilliant thing. And I can remember recently seeing an extract from the Big Match with Brian Moore interviewing Ray, your dad, and it was all about him becoming Chelsea captain at the age of 18. I mean, Ray then of course had a whole heap of hair like I did, and I'm sure you did when you were younger. In fact, my hairstyle was pretty similar to Ray's, funnily enough. Now it's all gone, of course. Bit like us and you know, and he did come across naive in the interview, but he had that famous smile. He came across very elegantly, very knowledgeable. You know, he put himself in a great position on the big match and, you know, you looked at him, you thought, you know what, you're going to be a fantastic player when you get older. So great testament to your dad at 18 years of age. Phenomenal.

Ross wilkins: 33:01

It is. And like I said earlier, I don't think it'll be repeated, to be fair. No, I don't think so. I think that alongside becoming England captain for the short period he did that for, those are two of the proudest moments he probably had had in the game, to be fair, because I think to captain, to captain any side shows that you're, you're a natural leader. And if you're, if you're in professional sport, that's what you want to kind of be known as, isn't it? So.

Lord Russell Baker: 33:27

And especially a club like Chelsea that, you know, going back in the day as they are now, they're famous, the Kings Road, the expectations are high, supporters want the best. You know, it was. No, no, you know, no, it was a huge risk for Ray, wasn't it, really? He had to hold himself up high to carry that position because the expectations would have been high, there's no doubt about that all around. And the cameras and the forts would have been all over him and the newspapers. But Ray did emerge as Chelsea's key player of that period, leading a team of mainly young players. Of course, as we said earlier, on to promotion again in 1976, 77. Oh, God, do I remember that. I went to the, I went to the home game against Hyde, Hull and was it Hull? Yeah, it was Hull. He won four nil, one promotion. And I think Billy Bremner was in playing for Hull that day, but he couldn't play at the time because he was injured, but I can remember running on the pitch actually. So one of those stories best forgotten, I guess. But euphoria promotion again is 76, 77. I was a young lad and I was just loving the whole thing. And in the next season, consolidation of their, their place in the first division. A very proud moment for the family, which I'm sure Ray talked about about readily with you too, Ross. I mean they did, they consolidated the following season, didn't they? They played extremely good football mid table fantastic back in the first division.

Ross wilkins: 34:44

Yeah. And I think, you know when you watch, I mean look at the Premier League nowadays, right? All the teams that come up typically go back down again and, and for a young team to come up and then be able to, to, to perform like they did, that would have been a phenomenal achievement for them. And then I think that led. I think he had a very good season that year and that led him towards the sale at Man United in the end because I think think when the club hit the financial difficulties they started to, to head towards. That's when they started looking at that, thinking he's one that we could cash in on here and actually, and actually make some money. I mean it was never dad's intention and he was quite vocal about that to ever leave Chelsea. He would quite happily have done Orion gigs and stayed there all his playing career. But I think the time would come, the value of him was recognized and obviously Manchester United came calling and when they do, invariably people want to take the cash and people want to go and play for him. So that's what ended up happening there. Which bit of a shame for Chelsea side of it but obviously for daddy progressed his career to a new state.

Lord Russell Baker: 35:42

And a few players got moved. Though it wasn't just Ray, was it? And when we had it previously in previous seasons when Peter Oskar was moved on of course now and Hudson and others because of financial problems with then the new east stand. But Chelsea's problems are still continuing to sell. Ray, as you say, he had to get sold to save the club. But so did Steve Wicks. I mean Steve Wicks, he was a Chelsea boy. He was brought up in the same youth side as Ray and he was told one day, steve, you've got to go to Derby. No, I don't want to go to Derby. I like it here. Well, Chelsea's a Porsche. I've been here all my life. I don't want to go to Derby. And I think it was Brian Mears that was positioned at the time actually. And Brian said, well, go and speak to the accountant and he'll tell you what. So he went off to speak to whoever the, the financial man was, I forget his name, and said, look, Steve, if you don't go to, to Derby on this for this 550,000pound deal, the club Chelsea won't be in business in two weeks time. We're finished. And that was the reality. And I suspect with Ray, your dad, he was also told a similar situation.

Ross wilkins: 36:43

Very, very similar conversations. Yeah, it was a case of if you don't make that move, think of all the job losses, think of all the players you're playing with, with where you want to end up in, in X money is time and you know what, fair play. Like they were going to move anyway, right. Like when you dealt that hand, you're going to go, aren't you? You're not going to.

Lord Russell Baker: 37:00

Exactly.

Ross wilkins: 37:01

It's the same in business tomorrow. If someone said to me, Ross, you need to leave to, to alleviate some funds to let the business survive, you go, wouldn't. You wouldn't want a whole business to fall apart overnight, like, I wouldn't want to do that.

Lord Russell Baker: 37:12

You have to accept it on the chin, don't you?

Ross wilkins: 37:13

Yeah, you do. But it's also not nice the way that's dealt, especially when you've got a profound love for the club that you're playing for and obviously you've been brought up through that, not grassroots, but through the academy system, what it would be exactly into that YTS platform, gone on to be the youngest captain ever and now you're being successful and starting to turn a corner and then it's like, now off you go, you need to go, otherwise we're done. It's. That's exactly.

Lord Russell Baker: 37:38

And of course that, that in those days going back, you know, you, you started at the club and generally you stayed at that club and very rarely you moved on to another club unless for reasons that, you know, like we're just talking about now, the Man United team, because you' main nice supporter, Ross. I mean that team, the, the youth team that went through to create the, the famous Manchester United team of yesteryear. I mean, you know, with gigs and everybody else, it's just one hell of a side, wasn't it? And they were there forever, almost pretty much. Beckham, obviously David Beckham was sold on for the famous football boot in the dressing room extravaganza, but at Chelsea, you know, Ray was a Chelsea support supporter through and through. And of course there we are. But in 1979, after Chelsea were relegated for the second time in a few years, Ray did sign for Manchester United for a fee of 825,000, the highest fee received for a Chelsea player at the time. I believe Ray was a Chelsea supporter as we talked about from childhood. So what memories do you have of Ray's time at Manchester United? Now your club are coming onto your club, Ross, or at least memories that your dad shared with you at Manchester United, because he must have taken you there.

Ross wilkins: 38:45

Yes, well, obviously I was born in 81, so just when you were there for about a season. So I would have gone there as a young babe in arms, I would have thought with my mom. I would have thought so. Yeah. I think one of my first, first pictures is in an FA car sitting there, you know, with mom and daddy. So obviously we didn't have mobile. We obviously have mobile phone cameras back then, did we? So it had to be a professional photo. But yeah, from, from what he used to talk about with United, he really struggled. It was a real big adjustment. And he, he said to me that he never really realized the magnitude of that club until he joined it. And I think you still see that nowadays. There's, there's still players nowadays that, that club. I think there's very few in the world that carry it. I think there's Liverpool, there's Manchester United. I'd. I'd probably say Rangers and Celtic for, for Scottish players would carry the same Barcelona, Real Madrid, very few others carry this burden of you have to win every game and you have to be your best every single week. Normally you can play for a team and you can get away with having an 80% or 70%, but it just wasn't accepted. And I think there was a period of time, I don't know whether it was first or second season, where dad really struggled to perform a level. And I look at. I look at Mason Mount and I've seen that classic. He's moved from Chelsea to there. He's. He's had that similar thing. I know he's had injuries, but when he has played, he's. He's looked a little bit below par and he hasn't been able to quite turn it on yet. But if you look back at Mason Mount, at Chelsea, there's a phenomenal footballer in there and he just. Preseason and a good run of games and I swear you could. You'll start to see the benefit of him. And I think. Think dad was very similar to that where he went to this club. It was A massive auditorium to play. And compared to what he was used to at Chelsea, the expectation on him was huge. And they wanted to win not just the league, but you're talking about, you know, European leagues as well, like of course, European championship. So they were fighting on every single front. And yeah, he struggled and then I can't remember who the manager was but he actually sent him away to America for a two, three week period and said just go away, go away, have a breast, think about things, come back. And he came back. In the next two seasons he was voted players player of the season by the supporters club at Manchester United. And it's just, it just goes to prove sometimes when you're in a bit of a rut, you've got to remove yourself from it, take it out, have a deep breath, come back with a different mentality and have another crack at it. And if you've got the ability, you will achieve it eventually, you know.

Lord Russell Baker: 41:19

Yeah, that goes back to your earlier statement about going off to do some work for a charity, doesn't it? Clear your head, clean your story soul, clear your mind and then come back and see things in a different way because you're right with the likes of Liverpool, Manchester United, indeed. Chelsea now of course have probably got the same aura. The expectation is high and great players, good players, really, really top class international players can struggle at those grounds because of those clubs, because of the expectation. And of course Ray went through it there in his early days.

Ross wilkins: 41:49

Well, look at Chelsea last season. I mean it wasn't just past Christmas last year where there was, was protests against the manager and the players want.

Lord Russell Baker: 41:58

Everybody out and the whole thing when.

Ross wilkins: 42:00

You look at it, they've gone on and won the World cup championship. It's phenomenal.

Lord Russell Baker: 42:06

And throwing the Euro Conference cup as well, that's not too bad, is it for, for a club that was in disarray in December last year.

Ross wilkins: 42:13

So there is expectation, I think more so now because the wages are more known about people. People look at a wage and they think that's a, that's an immediate reason that you need to perform 100% every single week you got. The body is the body. It's a human thing. It can only do so much in so many periods of time, which is why you still get managers. I think Jurgen Klopp was quite, quite vocal about it, talking about, you know, you need the winter break and more rest for these boys, not more games. And actually it'll be really interesting to see those clubs that went to that World Club cup how they Start performing in January, February come coming up because would have been a long period of time there to play football for this year. That for me will be quite interesting to see how that will manifest itself. But yeah, the expectation is phenomenal on these players and when you go to the bigger clubs you really start to realize it. And that was probably Dad's biggest take home from Manchester United was just how big a club it was.

Lord Russell Baker: 43:06

Yes, absolutely. And of course getting back to Ray and Manchester United, Race scored did score 10 goals in his five years with the Red Devils. I say the Red Devils now of course, because that's what they are. Not as many goals as Ray scored for Chelsea, of course, but one of his goals was a long range strike in the 22 draw with Brighton and Hove Albion in the 1983 FA Cup Final at Wembley. I mean now I'm sure your dad would have talked about that goal Ross, when you're a bit older because you've only been about two at that time. But what a fantastic. I can remember seeing it. It was an incredible strike. It put you down on the map really.

Ross wilkins: 43:41

It did. And I think I've got a little thing on my, on my Instagram account. It's very hard going back to those days to find the goals that we scored. And I cribbed about. I think there's about 20 goals I managed to get. And I video creeped them all together just for the kids to see more than anything so they could see what their granddad kind of used to play like. And it's really strange. He did. He stopped. I think I said it earlier on whilst he was at Chelsea. He was a bit of a goal machine. He would score quite a few goals a season and his assists were obviously there. But as he got older, his goals were less and less, but they became more spectacular. There's left foot volleys that fly in the top corner against Bruce Grobalo. Hard for kickoff. Like there's just goals galore and they're brilliant finishes. Like if you, if they were here now, you'd be like, they'd be the top 10. You know, they're phenomenal. And that goal, that goal actually I've got a, a friend of mine, when he passed, he. He actually took a screen grab of the, the image where dad's kind of curling the ball and he's had it framed for one of my sons in his bedroom. So he's got that up in his bedroom. Wonderful. And so we kind of revisit that every time we go up there. It was A phenomenal strike. And with his weaker foot as well, to bend it around, sound like that. It's just. It was testament to who he was a player and. And the ability he had. You know, he. There was a goal, I think there was a goal against. I think it might have been Bulgaria or Hungary for England. Ball gets, he lobs it over the top of the defenders and then rather than smashing the ball, he just lifts it over the goalkeeper with like this technique that most people wouldn't have used that way. Yeah, precision, accuracy. And I just think that that goal encompassed all of that, didn't it? It was a. It was a nice run out. Lovely pass to him as well. Putts inside and then just has the confidence with his foot to bend it round into the top corner. So no fantastic goal. One he was very, very proud of, I'm sure.

Lord Russell Baker: 45:26

And one that will be remembered by all and sundry, I think forever in a day. It's in Cast in stone. I think that goal is wonderful. I mean, as you said earlier, Ray was voted player of the year by the team supporters at the end of the 1983, 1984 season. I mean, Ray's midfield performance drew the attention of AC Milan. It would do, wouldn't it? Who made United a £1.5 million offer which was accepted and departed to Italy for around three years. I mean, you went out there as a young boy, of course. There must have been some great stories here, Ross as well, which you've probably heard from family later on in life. The Italian dream, A.C. milan, what a top club they were.

Ross wilkins: 46:06

Yeah, they were. They were phenomenal, phenomenal players in that. Not just. Not just team, it was the fan base and the club. There's. I don't know if you've ever visited San Silo yourself, but when you go there, there, there is just something amazing about that stadium. Like I, when they were talking about knocking it down, I was praying they don't knock it down, because I know it's old and it's falling apart, but actually there is something phenomenal about the height of it. The way it boxes in, the noise it creates is brilliant. And when you play, when you play the top teams out there, the Italian fans are just a different level to what we have back here in terms of noise. They're in there two hours before kickoff. Back in the day, you know, the flares are going off left, right and center. Very similar. I think Crystal palace is probably the only thing I've seen with their ultras recently. They kind of come anywhere near What I've seen in Italy. But yeah, I used to go to the games with mom. We used to sit down, I used to have this little AC Milan kind of fold out thing that used to go over the stairs that you walk down so the kids could sit on that and we'd watch the games and. And Milan was just probably my favorite first proper memories of a football stadium as a kid, to be fair. And obviously nice to go back there with dad when, when Chelsea were in the Champions League played there and Dennis Wise scored his famous goal that they now sing about. So yeah, that was, that was really nice to, to be able to go back there in later life and see it, you know, from another angle. But the, the furore around that club is phenomenal and, and when Mark Hateley and dad moved over there and they were like the talk of talk of the town and they couldn't go anywhere without being photographed. And obviously we were young pups at the time, 4, 5, 6. But yeah, we were constantly bothered in restaurants and stuff like that. But it was just lovely. And they're just passionate about their football in a slightly different way to is back here. I think more like the northern side of England where, where in Italy. A lot of the supporters of the clubs, they work hard in the week to earn their money to pay for the season tickets, go to their football. And you tend to find that back in the kind of the northern side of England where Newcastle and Manchester and Liverpool were very similar to that kind of ethos. And I think dad kind of gravitated to that quite easily from being from Manchester United to there. So they had a very successful couple of seasons there. I'm not sure they won too much. I think they came close. But again him and Mark Haley were, were, you know, well players and they're still talked about. I went back there with my girlfriend at the time, who's now my wife and she. We walked into, they had a shop near the Galleria in the middle of Milan. And I walked in, I bought the white shirt with the nice Adidas stripes. And he said, do you want a name on the back? And I was like, oh yeah, please can I have Wilkins? And he looked at me and he was like, Wilson, he's like, you're his son? I was like, yeah, I am, yeah. He went, the ship's on us. And he gave me the shirt, put my name on the back, handed it to me in a bag. And I was like, wow, that's phenomenal. That's like 20 years after he's Played for him. They still remember him as fondly as that. So just.

Lord Russell Baker: 49:11

Wow, that's brilliant, isn't it?

Ross wilkins: 49:12

Yeah. I was shell shocked that it really. It was great.

Lord Russell Baker: 49:14

Yeah. That's fantastic. Great testament to Ray, you know, well remembered forever in AC Milan. Superb, isn't it?

Ross wilkins: 49:23

Yeah.

Lord Russell Baker: 49:24

What a great thing that is.

Ross wilkins: 49:24

And when he passed away, I think Franco Barezi took a Wilkins shirt to the. To, like the home end and then they all did like a massive salute for him there and stuff like that. Which again, it just goes to show that his name was still, you know, recognised, which was. Which was really nice.

Lord Russell Baker: 49:39

Absolutely. Oh, that's fantastic. Absolutely fantastic. And well done to Baresi as well there. Fine footballer he was too, of course. But let's move on to Ray's international career. We've got to, haven't we, really? Ray scored three goals in 84 games for England. Also captained the England team, of course, on 10 occasions and played at the 1982 and 1987 World Cups. Fantastic. What do you remember, Ross, about your dad's playing career for England? I mean, there must be some magic moments. And of course, some interesting stories, too. I mean, I know one or two, but I don't think I should bring them up on the show.

Ross wilkins: 50:13

But yeah, we're gonna leave a lot of them, that's for sure. I've heard a lot about hotels and swimming pools, but, yeah.

Lord Russell Baker: 50:20

Oh, absolutely, yeah, yeah.

Ross wilkins: 50:22

I think. I think I mentioned it again earlier on that for him playing for his country, he was an Englishman at heart. Like, there was a. There was a. Much about him. You know, he's one of those guys that wanted St. George's flag outside his house. He, he. When we used to holiday in America a lot, and he used to be quite envious of how the Americans supported their country and. And he felt that we should be very similar. So anytime he got to put on that England shirt, he was obviously immensely proud and wanted to do the best he possibly could. And I'm sure you were going to mention it anyway, but in that 86 World cup, when he got sent off, that was probably the lowest part of his footballing career ever. I don't think he even thought that that would have been the case, that he would have got sent off. And actually, when I watch it back now, he was petulant. Yeah, I'll give him that. But actually, I don't think it's a. It's a red card offense. Wow.

Lord Russell Baker: 51:16

I didn't think so either.

Ross wilkins: 51:18

And I think, you know, we'd have seen it nowadays from the multitude of angles that we get on tv we'd have probably all gone what on earth have they done there like. But he had to deal with, with that. He had to. He had to put on his big boy pants and, and carry on career after that. But yeah, for England, I mean I mentioned the goal earlier. I'm sure it's Hungary scored that against but I think he felt a lot like how the maybe the golden era of. Of England more recently with the Rio Ferdinand and. And that team. I think he felt that they were. They underachieved to where they could have achieved.

Lord Russell Baker: 51:52

I think that statement though, isn't it?

Ross wilkins: 51:54

Yeah. I mean when you, I mean go through the team it's a phenomenal side and you go through the eras that we've had as an England team since then. We've all been close, haven't we? We've all been in a semi, semi final career and yeah, we were going through his stuff recently up at the place where we keep all his memorabilia and stuff which we're still determining what to do with and we, we pulled out a couple of his England caps and they were from. From the World cup leader games and it was just phenomenal to think about like all Those games like 84 games he played for England. It's just. It's a phenomenal is achievement and over such a long period of time and I think actually he would have easily hit 100. He was injured for about six months during his England career and I think he would have hit over 100 at some point and become a centurion. Which is a bit of a shame really for him. Yeah.

Lord Russell Baker: 52:49

Caps.

Ross wilkins: 52:50

Yep. Not to be sniffed at. And I think again I go back to it. I said about Chelsea and and it's no different with England captain in his country was by far his, his best personal achievement and it was that sense of pride again to, to wear that armband and lead your team out onto a pitch. I think he did quote me if I'm wrong but he did it eight or ten times, something like that. And for him I think every one of those games would been have meant equally as much as the other.

Lord Russell Baker: 53:19

Brilliant. That's a fantastic story and great, great recollection of your side there as well, Ross. I mean Ray Wilkins was called up to play for England for the first time. This is unbelievable in 1976 by coach Dom Revie. I mean that takes us back. And of course Dom Revvy didn't like Chelsea players but simply couldn't overlook Ray Wilkins could He Ray made, then made his debut on 28 May in a 32 win over Italy at the USA Bicentennial cup tournament in New York. I mean, did your dad ever tell you about his debut for England, Moss? I mean it's, I mean to be called that by, by Dom Revy, that's an absolute rarity.

Ross wilkins: 53:57

Yeah. And I mean again, testament to how he was playing at the time. Right. And what he could, what he could offer. But no, I don't. We didn't really talk much about his, his debut. It was more about, like I said earlier, the, the kind of just prideful playing for your country. He used to kind of drum that into us as that is the absolute elite of elite. And I mean my dad would sit there and watch every single sport that England were involved in. You know, when England were playing in, in the rugby, we'd watch every level when we were playing Europe versus the US in the rider car. But it's Europe all day long because we're part of that. And it was, that was how he was as an individual. So no, I have no recollection about, about his debut for England sadly. But yeah, like, like the, the England love he had for the, for playing for him was unreal.

Lord Russell Baker: 54:44

Well, I was hoping at the time that it wasn't going to be a Dom Revy kiss of death because I know Don Revy chose Alan Hudson for his England debut against West Germany in 1975 and he didn't play again or he might have one more game and that was the end. So being chosen by Tom Rev, he might have been a bit of a, bit of a curse really. But it didn't, didn't, didn't. It wasn't of course because he'd done 80, he completed 85. So fantastic. So the curse of Don Revy was removed with your, with your great father Raid there. There's no doubt about Matt Ross. Fantastic. Ray of course, made his final in 84th England appearance against the then Yugoslavia, no longer a country of course anymore in 1986. And what did your dad say to you about his final match for England? I mean you would have been about, I don't know, five years of age maybe.

Ross wilkins: 55:29

Yeah, yeah. I think he, he found that very difficult full stop, but he found all his kind of finals very difficult, I bet.

Lord Russell Baker: 55:39

Yeah.

Ross wilkins: 55:39

Because I think when you put so much heart and soul in something and you're so passionate about what you're doing, when that comes to an end, inevitably that, that comes with great sadness, doesn't it really and yeah, I think all his finals, all his clubs, he, he would have felt very similar to. But I think England especially, as I said before, it was such a big part of his, of his life and what he wanted to try and achieve with it. And I think when he was playing at QPR in LATTER Life, maybe 36, there was a, there was a. There's a paperclip and I've got at home. We found it in a drawer the other week and it. And it was like, surely Wilkins gets call up again. And it was all about how he'd like reinvented himself in this new way of playing for QPR at the time and that how on earth was he not in the England team that was going to the next World cup as a, as a senior professional, which had experience, but also in the way that he was playing, he would have been able to. To affect the team in a really positive manner. So I think when he saw that, he was quite hopeful that it might reignite itself. But again, I think he was just on the wrong side of his 30s and probably there were other players that were playing equally as well that were maybe a little bit younger that wanted to go and get that experience for future. So he missed out on that kind of comic as well.

Lord Russell Baker: 56:56

You admire his ambition though, don't you, Ross, really? Because they still had that get up and go, wanting to achieve, wanting to play for England, wanting to play football. Fantastic. Yeah, but, but of course that all led into Ray's coaching career and was an interesting one too actually, with Ray appointed Queen's Park Rangers manager from 1994 to 1996 and then managed fellow West London club Fulham, of course. Can't forget our neighbours, can we, in 1997 and 1998. So an interesting start to Ray's management coaching career, Ross, wasn't it? Two West London clubs, Northwest London.

Ross wilkins: 57:32

And he did. And I think he had a, he created a really fond love for, for Queen's Park Rangers, to be honest with you. There was. I mentioned earlier about characters in football and I can still remember because I was, I was getting into my teens then, so I, I remember going down to the training ground every summer, you know, for preseason and stuff like that. And the, the vibe around that club was phenomenal. They have some great players, players. Trevor Sinclair, Andy Sinton, Andrew Impey, you know, you go through the whole team. Kevin Galland, Les Ferdinand, Clive Wilson. There was just. There was a goalkeeper there called Jan Stagecow who had this fluorescent yellow top and he was a phenomenal goalkeeper. And as a family, I think we, we felt a real bond with him. That was the last club we were at where you, you had a proper players lounge.

Lord Russell Baker: 58:22

Yes.

Ross wilkins: 58:23

After, after your game, we'll go upstairs. Every player would be up there, even the, the opposition would be up there and they'd all have a beer after the game together, but all the families would be in there mixing. And that's how it was at Glasgow Rangers, at United. But after that it kind of started to phase out a little bit and I'm not sure whether that was. I think back then there was still the, there was still a foreign rule, wasn't there, in the game, I think, where you could only have like 3 or 4 not non English players playing for your team. That's right, abolished. And then I think you found that the dressing rooms probably weren't as tight as what they were back then. So. Yeah, I think, yeah, that's a phenomenal memory. And he did, like I said to you earlier, he did so well in, in one season when they got up to six. And then a little bit like the conversation with Chelsea, we were, we were holidaying in Florida, I remember we was. Was actually at Disneyland when we're sitting around by the pool and his phone rang and it was the chairman of QPR at the time and he looked really kind of distraught, the conversation he was having. And he walked away and when he came back, he was, he was almost depressed instantly. And when we started talking, they, they just informed him that they were selling, I think Clyde Wilson to Tottenham and Les Ferdinand was going to Newcastle and they just built on this side that they had, they had a good, good, good ethos. He thought he was going to go up and sign some players to add to that team to go and then try and challenge for Europe. And then in the end it became a real hard slog. They. They signed a couple of players that, that probably weren't of the level or that may be disappointed and then they ended up getting relegated that season. And that was my only real negative, negative season in football, if I'm being honest. Most of my seasons were either either, you know, fourth, fifth, sixth.

Lord Russell Baker: 1:00:13

Yes.

Ross wilkins: 1:00:13

In for a cup. They got knocked out. Okay, cool. But relegation is like. It was like a morgue in the stadium. It was a really strange feeling because you knew straight away people were going to lose their jobs, people were having their pay, the players were having their pay cut and the next season was going to look completely different. And in the end, obviously, dad didn't stick around too much longer. Fulham Was a bit of. A. Bit of a strange one. He went in there. I think Kevin Keegan was a chief executive officer with him, so obviously they knew each other from England, I think, days under Muhammad Aled. So kind of it was a bit of a dream team set up where you thought you had that kind of money of. Of the Hars back in and you. You had this dream team of dad and Kevin and I just think from. From what I know of that time, it just didn't quite work out how it. It should have panned out and it ended up a bit sour towards the back end. So, yeah, he had a bit of a hard start to his. To his football managerial career. Career, which then is hard to come back from and it's very, very difficult. And then obviously we'll talk about it in a minute. I'm sure you go from a manager to a coach and then you do well, you then become typecasted as a coach and it's then very hard to get back into the managerial side of things again, which he always kind of yearned for. One more opportunity, one more chance, you know. Yeah.

Lord Russell Baker: 1:01:35

A very well put about now going into coaching because that is what we're going to go into. And in March 1999, that was very, very good, Ross, for saying that. Ray was appointed. Yes, appointed Chelsea's first team coach alongside Graham Ricks, of course, after the sacking of Gianluca Viale at the start of the 2000 and 2001 FA Premier League season, both Ray and Graham were sacked on the orders of new manager Claudio Ranieri in November 2000. 2000. This was when Chelsea were starting to morph into a great club once again. I mean, Ross, I mean, I remember that Cloudy Ranieri size. They were brilliant. I mean, it must have been a very difficult moment for Ray at the time, though, to be edged out on the verge of. Because of Cloudy Ranieri coming in.

Ross wilkins: 1:02:20

Yeah. So I think under Luca, they created something quite, quite special. I mean, him, they did. Him and Luca were tight as anything.

Lord Russell Baker: 1:02:27

Like they were great friendship, weren't they, as well?

Ross wilkins: 1:02:30

Yeah. Like just kind of of, you know, bring that to the forest, to how strong they were. Like when. When dad was dying, he was the third person into the hospital. You know. I remember walking out with him and he just literally, when we got outside in the fresh air, he broke down in tears. Luca, like he couldn't believe what he'd witnessed. And so they were thick as thieves. They were. They were a great duo. They had a lovely kind of squad ethos back then. And, and I think they. Given a bit of time, I think they actually had a platform on which they could have gone on and done some even better things with Chelsea. You know, they'd achieved some good stuff, but I think they could have done better. And dad stuck around for the early part of. Of Claudio's reign, but he became more. It's not being disparaging towards that. He became more. Or Claudio. He became more of a translator for Claudio rather than a coach. And don't think he was that happy with that role. You know, I don't think anyone wants to go from being a number two to someone you're really tight with to someone that now you're translating for in a dressing room. It was never going to work out long term, so there was inevitability about him leaving at that point, which is obviously sad because it's back to the boyhood club thing again.

Lord Russell Baker: 1:03:39

Exactly.

Ross wilkins: 1:03:39

You know, it goes full circle. But, you know, him and Luca then go on to go to Watford.

Lord Russell Baker: 1:03:45

They did. They went to Watford together. Yes.

Ross wilkins: 1:03:47

Yep. And. And again, another mixed bag there. We won't delve too much into it, but there was ownership struggles there and stuff like that, you know, money problems and stuff. They had. They brought some fantastic players in. Again, characters. One guy called Philip Aali X AC Milan, phenomenal football player. And he came in and they tried to stabilize the back four with him, but obviously he hadn't played in the Premiership. So it's quite difficult for him to get used to at the start of it. And, and it was. It was a tough team to go and go and coach and manage, and it was a tough environment for them both to work in. And I think going from Chelsea, where you were used to winning stuff, to going to Watford where there was just an expectation of doing okay that had the kind of opposite kind of mental ethos to when he went to Manchester United as a player. So it's quite difficult to deal with. I mean, Watford, can you imagine? I've got to be honest, like, all the clubs we've been at and you can rattle them all off, there's. There's not one bad club out there. I, I honestly believe that, like, all the, all the fan bases are phenomenal.

Lord Russell Baker: 1:04:57

They are.

Ross wilkins: 1:04:58

They're just passionate about their own team. And Watford, again, it was another great, great experience to be part of. You know, like, I managed to go and, and watch all of their home games for the time we were there and, and understand the. You know, I've met a few great people Like Stephen Hughes, I still talk to now the ex Arsenal midfielder. We brought him in at one point I was having my knee treated in the doctor's room and he was right next to me and we got on quite well and he got on really well with dad. So he keeps in contact from time to time now, which is great. So you meet people along the way with these clubs that are in your life and you'll cross over with every now and again, which is lovely.

Lord Russell Baker: 1:05:37

What about Elton John? Did you ever meet Alton John who was.

Ross wilkins: 1:05:39

No, but my fame to fame is that I've wheel spun in his driveway. Fantastic. So I was always a bit of a petrol head as a kid and. And dad got invited around to his house once and I was like, I'm definitely driving you there for, for dinner. So I. Luca just got there before us and he said whatever. It was like a gravel drive going in. Whatever you do, do not speed out of this driveway. And what I just. I looked at Elton John and his boyfriend at the time and mum and dad were walking in with, with the Arnold and I don't know what came over me but I put my foot down and the wheels just started spinning and it went everywhere. So I got. Got a message from dad saying he wasn't too happy. I said but that's a. He's happy with the free story.

Lord Russell Baker: 1:06:28

Yeah, sure. I'm sure Elson John will remember that today, wouldn't he? You know, you probably answered his mind always now the day Ross Wilkins destroyed my driveway. Brilliant stuff. However, you know, Ray's England Under 21 coaching career started in 2004, so he's still back in the game. When Ray was assistant coach to Peter Taylor. Oh man, Peter Taylor. What player he was. Until Peter Taylor Left in early 2007, Ray was not retained by incoming coach Stuart Pierce. Always happens, doesn't it? But how did Ray feel about this latest setback, Ross? I mean, you know, he's had something going with Peter Taylor and all of a sudden he's all been pinched from him again.

Ross wilkins: 1:07:05

Very successful. Peter Taylor as well. I can't. What's the name of the tournament? Was it the two long tournament they won? I can't remember.

Lord Russell Baker: 1:07:10

Yes, they did. They were successful.

Ross wilkins: 1:07:13

They were. They were successful on 21 team and they were the grounding of what then became the, the golden era of the England team at that time.

Lord Russell Baker: 1:07:19

Yeah.

Ross wilkins: 1:07:20

So yeah, look, whenever you're number two to anyone, I think your, your shelf life is. Is pretty much tagged for you, isn't it? If the coach Goes, typically you're going to go with them. You know, Stuart coming in to do a job, does he want someone there that's been part of something else or does he want to bring someone in with him that can then go and achieve something together? He probably wants his own staff, doesn't he? When, you know, Maresa comes in at Chelsea, he wants to bring his whole backroom staff with him. This just happens in football all the time now. So it became, became obvious I think after, after his managerial career and the bit that he had at Watford that he knew that he was going to have a bit of a yo yo coach in life. I think shelf life for a manager back then would have been a couple of years, maybe three. So that's kind of the top end you're ever going to be at a club, isn't it?

Lord Russell Baker: 1:08:11

Yeah, it is really, to be honest.

Ross wilkins: 1:08:13

Yeah. So he, he became a bit immune to it and it was more a case of, right, cool, we're out of work now six months, let's sit around and see what happens and we'll go back in on the next one where possible.

Lord Russell Baker: 1:08:22

Which, which he did, of course. In September 2008, Ray was appointed assistant first team coach to Louis Philippe Scala Scalari. What a name to conjure with back at Chelsea following Steve Clark's departure to West Ham United. So, Ross, your dad, Ray was back at his boyhood club once again as first team coach. Wow, what a story he was.

Ross wilkins: 1:08:45

And I think that was the start of his. At that point. I think when Scolari took over, they were becoming the team, weren't they? They were starting to really be known as one of the top players, one of the, of the top players in their Premier League. And I think he, he really was excited about that and I think I, I can't remember what actually happened with the Scar era. It was quite short, wasn't it?

Lord Russell Baker: 1:09:08

It was short.

Ross wilkins: 1:09:09

Didn't really short the way it was supposed to have done and, and then who came in straight after him.

Lord Russell Baker: 1:09:17

Louis Philippe Scalari was. Had a shock sacking, didn't he really? Because I thought it was quite a shock. Didn't for whatever reason go down too well, but he was getting results and the team was playing some lovely football and. And Ray then was Chelsea's caretaker manager for the fifth round. FA cup time with Watford. Yeah, Chelsea won the game. 31 for a Nicholas and Alga Hatrick. With the club's new manager, Gus Hiddink watching from the stands. A topsy turvy time for Chelsea and Your dad, Ross, wasn't it, really? So Gus hidden coming in and another exit. Probably for Ray, it was indeed.

Ross wilkins: 1:09:55

He also must be Chelsea's most successful manager ever, because that's one 100% win record, right?

Lord Russell Baker: 1:10:00

Yeah, it was, yeah.

Ross wilkins: 1:10:01

I mean, one game won one game. So he's never lost his manager for Chelsea. No. And Gus, he absolutely adored. I think they instantly struck a chord with each other. They went on to win. Was it the FA cup that season, do I recall that correctly? And it's the one where Gus gets him up into the stand with him because he reckoned that actually dad was the main part in keeping that squad together through that period of time. And yeah, like, they, they had a phenomenal relationship. He, Gus, was larger than life, like, really fun guy. And the team was great. Like, you know, the back four was phenomenal. It was really starting to shape up to be something special, which it ended up being in that double season. Right. Like, I think that that season was just something I'd never experienced in football.

Lord Russell Baker: 1:10:50

Yeah, it was phenomenal, wasn't it? And of course, then under good, good hitting, of course, Ray's contract wasn't renewed. We're back to this again. And whilst appearing as a guest on Sky Sports Champions league coverage in December 2010, Ray stated that Chelsea still had not given him a reason for his sacking. But I guess this is what happens all the time when new managers take over, as you've just already said, really wants to bring in his own star for us. That's a real shame for Ray. Wasn't it your dad, you know, he was back there, he was enjoying football again and circumstances got in the way.

Ross wilkins: 1:11:23

Yeah. I mean, when people ask me, like, why don't you support Chelsea? I look at it instantly. I go, well, they sold him and they've sucked him three times.

Lord Russell Baker: 1:11:31

You haven't got much love from that point of view.

Ross wilkins: 1:11:33

We don't support Chelsea as a. A family man. No. Like, again, another painful way to leave the club. And I think it's that boyhood club thing again as well. When you're brought up, gone back there, left there, gone back there, left there. But gone back there and been successful and then left. That became. Became quite hard for him to deal with and. And at times he would get quite low and start questioning himself. And I think when, when you. You get fired and you're not given a reason, then I think it's very hard to come to terms with. And, you know, if I went into any business tomorrow and just suck someone, it wouldn't happen, would it? You have to be. You have to be given a process. You go through that process. Yeah, exactly. Due, due time to reflect and change your ways and then, you know, still happening, then you go. Whereas in football, it's a different game. It doesn't abide by the normal laws of, of employment. So it's like you're gone, see you.

Lord Russell Baker: 1:12:29

Later, win matches or you're out. It's as simple as that.

Ross wilkins: 1:12:32

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is. Which is tough, but, you know, it's tough. It ends up becoming a better story as we move forward anyway.

Lord Russell Baker: 1:12:39

It does, of course. And of course Ray was part of the media team that contributed to the Football Italia show that aired on Channel 4. Ray later appeared as commentator for Sky Sports, particularly on their Champions League coverage. Kind of talked a bit about earlier on, particularly around Chelsea. Of course, Ray also worked for Talk and, you know, he was a very polished commentator, wasn't he? His knowledge of football was outstanding. I mean, what he'd learned over the years of playing, coaching, managing was simply phenomenal. I mean, you must be proud, Ross. Your dad's media expertise too. I mean, he was, I can remember listening to him doing his media coverage and he was really, really good and he came across, well spoken, proper, quality conversations around football and he knew stuff and it came across.

Ross wilkins: 1:13:25

Yeah, I think people, people think media must be easy for, for footballers, but so many don't do it for a reason. That's because they can't. It's really not easy to sit there and I think he found co commentary difficult at the start, which is obviously what he went with Peter Brackley and James Richardson to do with the Football Italia side of things. He then grew in confidence with it in terms of when to interject, when to allow them to talk. There's a, a lot of methodology towards co commentating that you need to kind of understand and when you, you, you're young to it, I think it's quite difficult. But then obviously he became more, more of a pundit in the student. More, more during Richard Keys's reign at Sky. That era of football where, you know, Sky TV would just come into the fore and really starting to penetrate the market and take it over and put the money in. And he, he learned a lot from the way they presented and presented themselves in terms of like the suit, the T and then obviously in laughter, life, radio was something he loved. Alan Brazil, so especially he loves going on with Alan. Always spoke really highly of him and Talksport gave him a really good life as it Does a lot of ex pros when they're in their intermediate stage. I listened to Neil Warnock the other day and he's still pushing himself for new roles and new jobs whilst he's on talksport. Thought because really, yeah, why not? It's a perfect thing to do. Right, I'm going to go work on talk, give my opinion. Very valid. And I want to get back in the game, like give the guy a job, get. Let him have a crack at it again.

Lord Russell Baker: 1:14:59

Absolutely. Neil Waller. What a coach he was. Yeah, fantastic. What a manager.

Ross wilkins: 1:15:03

He's. He's one of those guys that I, I was very fortunate to meet, actually. Nick, when you. I never really knew what to, to think about him. Like, I honestly can't remember the club where I might have been. QPR and. And he's always very aggressive, isn't he, when he's on the bench and.

Lord Russell Baker: 1:15:16

Yeah, he is, yeah.

Ross wilkins: 1:15:18

And he was up in the players lounge afterwards and he came over towards dad and he looked quite angry and they had a bit of a spatula at the end of the game and he literally just got near him, his mouth opened up and just beamed with a smile and shook dad's hand and like we. He came and joined us on the table for five, ten minutes. Like, I just thought, what, what different way of like seeing someone in, in real life, like, it's quite nice to see.

Lord Russell Baker: 1:15:40

But no, that's what he's like in real life. Neil Warnock, he's generally a nice person, isn't he?

Ross wilkins: 1:15:44

Lovely. Seems like a lovely guy. And, and people like, you know, we diversify a little bit. People like Jose as well, you know, he had this, this Persona that he was one thing, but I can, I can tell you for now, Jose is a lovely, lovely man.

Lord Russell Baker: 1:16:00

He hear that for a lot of people.

Ross wilkins: 1:16:02

He was texting me. There was an anti Joshua fight I was watching one night and I just had. My phone just rang with a, with a WhatsApp message and it was JM in the top corner. I thought, who the ****** hell's jm? Opened it up and it was Jo and I'm just watching the fight. I'm sure your dad would have loved to watch this tonight. And we had a conversation on the phone and after that he went to Man United as manager and invited us on the pitch with the kids, have a photo with him and it was just, you know, like people don't see that side of people like him but they need to hear more about it because he, he's another lovely guy in Football. And there's. There's so many of them that have this Persona that they have to put on and they can't, they can't kind of relinquish themselves from it. But deep down they're. They're really nice people of. And a lot of.

Lord Russell Baker: 1:16:42

I follow that. I follow that completely. I mean, I've heard that's that story about Jose for many people. So I fully believe what you're saying as well. He was a lovely man, or is a lovely man, I should say. Top notch. Top notch. And of course, a Chelsea icon. But, you know, he loves Chelsea too, doesn't he, Jose Mourinho? He's in his blood like your father. You cut him in two and his blue blood will come out for sure. I mean. And finally, as a testament to Ray Wilson, Carlo Ancelotti wrote in his autobiography, the beautiful games of an ordinary genius. Ray is one of those select few, always present, noble in spirit. A real blue blood, Chelsea flows in his veins. Without him, we wouldn't have won a thing. Some accolade, Ross, to your dad from one of the finest football coaches in football folklore and modern. In the modern game. What a wonderful statement to make. And it's all written down in his autobiography. It's brilliant, isn't it?

Ross wilkins: 1:17:38

Yeah. I mean, there was a period. Was it the. Was it the Gus hidden bit where he got sacked then? I think they went on a run of something like 11 games without a win. And, and when I was fortunate enough to. To chat to John Terry about it, he. He was mentioning that something was lacking in the dressing room. You just felt the energy. It kind of drained out of the, out of the squad. And it is phenomenal to think that one human being could have an impact on. On something that big. But dad was a really big character. Wasn't overly, like, I can't explain it in, in a group of people, he wouldn't be loud, but he'd be subtly pulling people together and making sure everyone was knit together really well. And on the training pitch, he'd be the one having a laugh and a joke. But when it was time to be serious, you'd know about it and it was time to be serious. And that's very similar to how he kind of fathered us as kids growing up and stuff. And I think Gus really recognized as that and so, and, you know, so did Carlo in the end, when they went and won the double that season. I was really fortunate. I, you know, me and my, me and my wife were together for quite some time. And she, she didn't know much about football when she met me and we, we started going to a few of the home games that at the start of the season I said this team's going to do something quite special this year. I could just feel it that a real balance around the squad and you could just, you could just sense something was coming with them. And I said to her, what about if we, you know, we didn't have children at the time. I said what about if we, if we follow the team the season? And she's like, what do you mean? I was like well let's go to all the away games and we'll go to the home games and let's just see where it goes. And in the end she just fell in love with football and the whole passion around it and she couldn't, she couldn't quite understand it until that point, but she was getting a full backroom view of everything from the hotel stays the night before to the dinner, the breakfast, the pre match meals. And it was such a great insight for a season into a top championship winning team and they just annihilated everyone and it was, it was down to ability, it was down to their team bond and it was down to them having some world class players. And to be fair, that year they gone on to win the Champions League as well and done the treble. But that wasn't to be, was it against the fates of Barcelona team?

Lord Russell Baker: 1:19:52

Yes, I remember that very well and I think the manager, no, the referee I do believe was the one that was inspiring for the Barcelona win. I seem to remember some decisions there that referee was making which were just unparalleled in football. I mean what, what was going on with that referee? I just don't know. I mean I won't say paid off. Oh still I just said but, but it's classic isn't?

Ross wilkins: 1:20:17

Wasn't great to watch and obviously they take the win in the end or we'll get the result and, and Chelsea go out and, and that, that was the end of that. But that season finished on such a high anyway, you know, to go and we did. There was a game where again my wife sat with me and we were having a bet. I think they were playing Wigan at home. She broke down 8 nil on her, on her betting slip and I was like what are you doing? That is just throwing money down the drain.

Lord Russell Baker: 1:20:42

And it was, wasn't it?

Ross wilkins: 1:20:43

I think they went and beat the mate. Yes. It was just, I think Solomon scored some goals and Elka scores It was just goals flying in from every drogba. It was phenomenal that the front three they had, in an attacking sense was just off the scale in terms of power and pace and I don't think that's been rivaled recently. You know, when you look at the front threes that are out there now, they were just phenomenal that Chelsea could have taken anyone on at that time. And then, you know, they go and win the FA cup at the back end of it as well. Which is a fantastic way to kind of end that season, really.

Lord Russell Baker: 1:21:19

Exactly. It was fantastic end of the season and. And it's gone on ever since. So the history of Chelsea continues. It won't end, will it? Your dad's part of it. A big part of Chelsea's history in not just as a player, as a coach, some of the inspirational people, you know, coaches and managers worked with at Chelsea. You know, what a great storyline that is, Ross. I mean it's something you must be very proud of. Everybody must be.

Ross wilkins: 1:21:44

Yeah, absolutely. I think like seeing, you know, we're very fortunate we managed to keep fours and season tickets there that we buy year after year. And we've said that no matter whether, you know, the kids support Chelsea or not, it's great for them to be able to go back there and understand what he was part of and go and watch top Premier League football. All my children love circles, so they get to watch some top Premier League football. They get to watch the team that their granddad loved and played for. And then we sit. We're very fortunate to sit underneath the banner that says that we don't make them like Ray anymore. So there's always that sentimental element to going to the ground as well. So yeah, I can only thank the Chelsea supporters especially. And it's not just emit like through that period of time when he passed, I had calls from every corner of the earth saying how sorry they were to hear our news. Whether that be on Twitter, which is now X or Instagram or WhatsApp and phone call calls. It was phenomenal. But Chelsea especially have been great with this really good and post period as well. So. No, that's lovely.

Lord Russell Baker: 1:22:48

That's good to hear. That's a fantastic, a fitting end to this show. Really fantastically well said. So what is next in the world of Ross Wilkins? Getting on to yourself, Ross. What are you now? What's your plans next?

Ross wilkins: 1:22:58

Who knows?

Lord Russell Baker: 1:22:59

Who knows? Absolutely. Who knows where the world will be your oyster?

Ross wilkins: 1:23:03

Do any of us know what we're doing next? I don't know.

Lord Russell Baker: 1:23:06

No, we don't. I don't even know if I'm going to get up in the morning, let alone what's going to happen tomorrow. Tomorrow. So let's just see, you know, the sun comes up, the sun goes down. As long as I'm breathing God's air, I'm happy and I can create great shows like this that everybody can enjoy and listen to. I'm happy. And that's. That's a great thing too, isn't it? So, yeah, doing the things you enjoy doing.

Ross wilkins: 1:23:25

It is. I'm very, very. I'm very fortunate. I've got four beautiful children. I've got a lovely, lucky. Yeah. And I work hard. I think you mentioned it right at the start. I love my grassroots football and last season got involved with. With a youth team at Dawkin Wanderers, which we went on to be really successful with. And I'm back involved with them this year with. With our coach Thierry, which that'll be great fun. My little one that's turning four is just starting with a little local kickers club called Kiko, so it'd be great to.

Lord Russell Baker: 1:23:54

Brilliant.

Ross wilkins: 1:23:55

Bring him along and get. Get his journey started. And my eldest is. Is hitting that age where he's into absolutely everything now. He's actually into his athletics more than his football and he's doing really well with that, apart from the fact he tore his hamstring a couple of weeks back, which a bit of sh. A shame. So, yeah, like I said, I plow my. My life into the family now. Still see Mum weekly to pieces. Sis lives over in. In Brentwood in Essex. I don't get to see as much of her. We're in Surrey, so it's quite, quite a distance. But when we do, it's lovely to catch up and. And obviously see Dad's family as. And when we can for special occasions and stuff. So, yeah, that's what's next for me. Just carry on working hard, see where that gets us and then keep going with the family side of things.

Lord Russell Baker: 1:24:38

Fantastic. Great stuff and I'm pleased for you. I hope that all continues successfully. I know we've talked business before, but I hope the business runs for you. Well, family's fantastic and we've been on the show now for about an hour and a half, by the way. So it's been an hour and a half, you know, it's just disappointing.

Ross wilkins: 1:24:53

I need dinner.

Lord Russell Baker: 1:24:54

I know, so do I. That's what I'm thinking about now, food. So what I'll do is I'll Just say, as always, this is almost my sort of final gambit. Ross, as always on the world of Lord Russell podcast talk show, we could talk forever, Ross, about your. Your incredible, much loved and much missed dad, Ray Butch Wilkins. And indeed we could. It's been a huge pleasure, as always, and as always, the pleasure is all mine and of course, the show's audience when this podcast is released on the world of Lord Russell podcast talk show and the Lord Russell Baker YouTube channel. Thank you, Ross. Ladies and gentlemen, I'll give you Ross Wilkins and I'm sort of doing a clapping of the hands here. It was absolutely fantastic. Fantastic. I mean, Ross, do you mind staying on just for a couple of minutes? I know you're happy. So am I. And I'll just wrap up. That'd be fantastic. The next episode on the World Lord Russell podcast talk show is business turnaround specialists with Michel Lesters. Yeah. Non sporting show. This time, Michelle heads up Mentup lead up as a business consulting company who specializes in empowering business leaders to develop vision and strategy for sustained growth, covering the uk, Europe, United States, Australia and the Far East. So a great show to look forward to for all. And of course, exclusive on the world of Lord Russell podcast talk show and the Lord Russell Baker YouTube channel. And of course, I'm looking forward to seeing you all on the inside. So until then, it's au revoir from him and au revoir from me.