Three Times A Quaker with David Hodgson

🎙️ Three Times A Quaker – with David Hodgson | World of Lord Russell Podcast

Step into the extraordinary football journey of David Hodgson, the English striker who played for top clubs including Liverpool, Middlesbrough, Sunderland, Norwich City, Swansea City, and internationally for FC Metz, Mazda, and Jerez Deportivo. In this exclusive episode, Lord Russell Baker explores Hodgson’s career highlights, fierce rivalries, European triumphs, and his enduring legacy at Darlington FC.

🏆 Key Moments in This Episode:

• Signing drama: Bolton vs. Middlesbrough
• Debut clash with Norman Hunter at Ayresome Park
• Winning the UEFA U-21 European Championship for England
• Life at Liverpool FC alongside Kenny Dalglish & Ian Rush
• European Cup glory in Rome, 1984
• The Sunderland move and Roy Evans’ cheeky farewell trophy
• Managing Darlington across three spells and writing Three Times A Quaker

📚 Discover the story behind David Hodgson’s acclaimed book Three Times A Quaker, and hear firsthand what’s next in his world of football.

🔔 Subscribe for more legendary sporting stories and exclusive interviews: @LordRussellBaker | The World of Lord Russell Podcast Talk Show

📺 Watch next: “Gordon The Guided Missile” with rugby legend Tim Stimpson

#DavidHodgson #LiverpoolFC #Middlesbrough #EuropeanCup #FootballPodcast #LordRussellBaker #ThreeTimesAQuaker #DarlingtonFC #PremierLeagueLegends #FootballHistory #SoccerStories #UEFAChampions #PodcastInterview

Transcript

[00:11] Lord Russell Baker: A very warm welcome to the world of Lord Russell podcast talk show.

[00:15] And today's show is three Times a Quaker which captures the life of an English former footballer who played for played for Middlesbrough, Liverpool,

[00:25] Norwich City, local club to me here of course in Norfolk, Sunderland, Swansea City, Sherlock Holmes, Sheffield Wednesday as well as top division clubs FC Metz in France, Mazda in Japan and Jerez Club Deportivo in Spain.

[00:39] During his two year spell at Liverpool, he helped them win the first division twice. He made 49 appearances in total between 1982 and 1984.

[00:50] Also in 1984 he received the European cup winners medal as a substitute when Liverpool won the European cup in Rome.

[00:58] He was a member of the 1982 UEFA European Under 20 Championship winning England team, Under 21 team, of course. Yes folks, it gives me immense pleasure to welcome on the show David Hodgson.

[01:10] Welcome to the show, David.

[01:12] David Hodgson: Thank you so much indeed. Do I address you as Lord Russell or just address you as Russell?

[01:17] Lord Russell Baker: Well, my branding's Lord Russell, but you can address him as Russell. David, no problem at all.

[01:21] David Hodgson: Okay. The Lord might come out in advance.

[01:24] Lord Russell Baker: No problem.

[01:24] David Hodgson: Thank you so much for inviting me. Look, I'm really looking forward to this to be honest with you.

[01:28] Lord Russell Baker: Yeah, no, it's great to have you on. It's an absolute pleasure, it really is. And when I looked into your background and your life to produce this script really is a wonderful story.

[01:37] So let's get at it, I guess.

[01:39] David Hodgson: Yeah, of course.

[01:40] Lord Russell Baker: Brilliant. So David, at the start of your professional career,

[01:43] you nearly signed for Bolton Wanderers, who invited you for a trial and offered you a two year apprenticeship apprentice contract actually followed by a two year professional contract.

[01:54] But Middlesbrough got wind of this and very quickly came in with a two year apprentice contract and you sign for Middlesbrough. So what was the defining moments that made you sign for Middlesbrough rather than Bolton?

[02:06] David Hodgson: To be honest with you, it was one of those moments in, in life as well, which I've never forgotten. I've also carried it on on many occasions with other people. Is that when the opportunity came with Bolton,

[02:16] obviously at that, at that age, all those years ago to get offered an apprenticeship and a guaranteed professional?

[02:22] Yes, it was pretty unique at the time, to tell you the truth.

[02:25] And then of course you get the two year option at Middlesville, which is basically a two year apprenticeship. And I went to my father and asked him,

[02:33] what do I do?

[02:34] Which one should I take?

[02:36] And his words were dead simple, well, if I tell you which one to take and it goes wrong, you'll blame me for the rest of your life.

[02:44] I went off what my heart was telling me and my heart was telling me. Middles of a football club.

[02:51] I've always followed my heart. I've never followed my head, which has probably cost me in some things in life, but I followed my heart.

[02:57] And the reason being that is when I went down to Middlesbrough for training and obviously the apprentices at the time was like Stan Cummins, Peter Johnson, Charlie Bell,

[03:06] lads like that, who I just sort of had a rapport with. More little Stan Cummins as well.

[03:13] He was probably the one most influential for taking me there. Billy Wolf, also another very good friend from the northeast of England.

[03:19] And it was only because of this bond in terms of maybe it sounds. It's Dafsa sounds it was middle of it, but Sunderland Football Club because Little Stam was a big Sunderland fan, David Armstrong was a big Sunland fan.

[03:31] So these people made me feel welcome and that's the reason why I opted to take the gamble of a two year apprenticeship and not a four year potential dealer at Baltimores.

[03:40] Yeah.

[03:41] Lord Russell Baker: Oh, great story and very well said too. And your father was actually very, very right, wasn't he, to say, if I make the decision for you or explain to you which club to go for when it goes wrong, you would have blamed your father, wouldn't you?

[03:53] What's your doubt about that?

[03:55] David Hodgson: It would be the most natural thing to do.

[03:57] Yes, I agree, I agree to turn around and say, well, you told me that and you would use that as an excuse. And I didn't have an excuse. The bottom line was it was on my shoulders.

[04:05] I made the decision and Middlesborough is where it started, you know.

[04:10] Lord Russell Baker: Fantastic. So you signed for Middlesbrough in 1978 and had four years at Middlesbrough, finally making your first team debut against Bristol City in 1981. Now at Ayerson park there was a part of the ground called the Chicken Run.

[04:24] I do remember this actually, which was an area at where you could get some stick from the home supporters.

[04:30] I understand you needed to make a good impression on that day. So you clashed with Norman Hunter. Oh, remember him at Leeds, Norman? Break your legs, Hunter. Fantastic. Yes, Norman Hunter, who was in that infamous Leeds United 1970 side.

[04:43] So tell us more, David, about your debut and your clash with Norman aren't going to break your legs, Hunter.

[04:50] David Hodgson: Yeah, well, obviously Norman being northeast lad as well, as it happens, from. From Burglary. No more than a mile or two from. Just quickly going back there. I signed for the borough in 76, obviously seven years when you became a professional.

[05:02] Yes. An apprentice at 76 and obviously two years leading up to the point when I made my debut at 18.

[05:09] But yeah, Sydney was my starting debut. I'd already came on against QBR and Forest as a substitute in theory, but that was my first start in the starting 11 at the borough.

[05:20] And there was a coach at the time, an old gentleman who originally worked alongside Big Jack. And I called an old guy called Jimmy Greenhoff, not the Greenhoff brothers from Manua.

[05:30] And he just listen, old senior pros or old coaches, in theory,

[05:37] they know what to say to kids, okay?

[05:40] And for him to pull me to one side and say, listen,

[05:45] you have to make your mark today in front of the chicken run didn't say, you have to make your mark in terms of having a great performance in front of a home crowd.

[05:53] He basically made the point of the chicken run.

[05:58] At what point can you do that? And it only happened to be that a ball had to be played up in the air very, very, very early on in the game.

[06:08] And something in my head triggered and said,

[06:11] elbow, Big Norman.

[06:13] So I've gone up and obviously, to tell you truth, I. I clapped at him with the elbow. He probably was never ever expecting it,

[06:21] especially from a young kid and especially who he was as well. I mean,

[06:26] and to be honest, yeah, I caught him flush on and he. He hit the ground and he'd be. Honestly, he was down there for a little while.

[06:32] Bit of a scuffle took place. Jerry Gow, I remembered Jerry Gow coming up, grabbed me by the throat, which you could do back in them days without getting sent off,

[06:40] basically saying, you'll not get through the 90 minutes.

[06:43] And to be honest, Norman eventually picked himself up.

[06:46] Do I think he could have probably done me at some point in that game,

[06:51] potentially,

[06:52] because of who he was, what he was, his experience. He could have waited for that one moment. He didn't. Whether it didn't happen, I'm not too sure,

[06:59] but that was the moment when I. E. The Chicken run took Hodgy into their hearts and made my life a lot. And I always had incredible rapport with that end of the ground, you know?

[07:10] Yeah.

[07:11] Lord Russell Baker: What a fantastic story. Really is a fantastic story and all, of course, on your debut, really, as a starting start in the starting lineup. Incredible.

[07:20] There was also the sequel where Middlesbrough played Bristol City away in the last match of the season.

[07:27] When the game started, Norman Hunter came over and said, right, you little. I'll say it, shit, I don't like swearing usually on the show.

[07:34] Here's the deal. You slow down and I won't Break your legs. And you famously replied, and I quote,

[07:41] here's my deal. I won't. You. You will not break my legs and I won't go down.

[07:46] True to. To form, that Norman, I'll break your legs. Hunter,

[07:51] the story around all this. So how did it all end up on the pitch, David? Some respect,

[07:56] Norman Hunter.

[07:58] David Hodgson: It's. It's one of those moments which obviously I still remember to this day. And I remember this because of it being Norman Honda. Okay.

[08:05] Lord Russell Baker: Yes.

[08:08] David Hodgson: We actually played Bristol City.

[08:10] The season ended on the Saturday,

[08:13] and I'm not too sure what the reason was behind the fact that Middlesbrough's game was played on the Tuesday, which was technically two, three days after the entire season had closed down.

[08:25] Lord Russell Baker: Yes.

[08:26] David Hodgson: So Norman,

[08:27] a kickoff, literally,

[08:29] he came straight up alongside me and basically said, right, listen,

[08:33] here's a deal like you've just tried to point out.

[08:36] You don't run around today and I won't break your leg.

[08:39] And for.

[08:41] My reply was, well, I'll tell you what I'll do.

[08:43] I'll run around because I'm not quick. You're not going to catch me, and you're going to break my leg. So at the end of the day, that's how it panned out.

[08:51] But the thing was, at the end of the game,

[08:54] he came up,

[08:56] put his arms on me,

[08:58] hugged me,

[08:59] give me some lovely words like, listen, you've done great tonight, son, blah, blah, blah, blah, brilliant. And. Yeah, and, and, and it's just one of those moments that you'll. You'll never forget.

[09:10] Lord Russell Baker: Wonderful. So I had total respect for you, didn't he, really, David, on the pitch?

[09:16] David Hodgson: The Northeast connection, truthfully. Or maybe I'd already had a season technically in the. In the First Division, which was then the old First Division, not as in the Premier League.

[09:25] And,

[09:25] you know, I'm pretty certain when kids are making the mark, I'm only taking that,

[09:30] you know, I've been manager of a team and when youngsters make the mark or the managers aware of it and all the players are wearing. I think Norman probably thought, you know what?

[09:38] This kid's got a chance. And yeah, it was lovely. It was wonderful. Yeah.

[09:42] Lord Russell Baker: Fair play to him. I mean, David, you also enjoyed a good relationship with your manager at Middlesbrough, namely John Neal. Very famous, of course, John Neal. And John Neal became very famous at Chelsea after leading Middlesbrough in 1981.

[09:54] So please tell us more about John Neal as a man, because he was a really quiet,

[09:58] unassuming gentleman, wasn't he, as well.

[10:02] David Hodgson: The Northeast, when you look back, have Been phenomenal for producing managers. Howard Kendall, Bob P. Oh, wow.

[10:09] Lord Russell Baker: Yes.

[10:10] David Hodgson: Big Jack Clothy,

[10:12] John, Neil and Stan and so many more from the northwest of England.

[10:19] And John,

[10:20] when he arrived, was a very, very quiet man.

[10:23] Man of very few words to tell you truth. But he took a lot of kids under his wing,

[10:27] myself, Mark Proctor, Craig Johnston,

[10:30] and really made us feel that we were so important to the, to the starting, not the starting level,

[10:37] important to the club, but more importantly needed on a Saturday afternoon.

[10:41] And all three of us, I know there's, I mean Billy Askew, Peter Johnson, Charlie, lots of lads made the debut in them.

[10:47] We,

[10:49] we welcomed that praise off him and all of us are fed off it in theory.

[10:54] We tend to run that extra mile because of the gaffer giving us, you know, those words of praise prior to games and how he believed in us. And yeah, super guy should certainly should never have lost his job at that time.

[11:09] I think he probably should have stayed another season and then for which case I don't know where the club would have gone. Would we have stayed in the league potentially?

[11:16] Yes, I would have thought so.

[11:18] But yeah, he opted and obviously left and he ended up getting the Chelsea job.

[11:22] Lord Russell Baker: Yes, indeed he did and did very well at Chelsea too, didn't he? So very good. Just goes to show what a, what a fantastic coach, manager he was and you know, coach and manager of players too.

[11:32] Getting the players to play for him. Wonderful, wonderful man. Fantastic.

[11:36] David Hodgson: It's a thing that probably doesn't exist in today's game as such,

[11:39] where players get this, you know,

[11:41] bond with the manager.

[11:43] I don't know why, maybe it's society's change, but in those days that's how it was. You know,

[11:49] you had this bond with your manager, especially as a youngster and you fed off. That's what, you know, that's what made a better play on a Saturday afternoon because you were working for your club and your manager, you know,

[12:00] absolutely spot on.

[12:02] Lord Russell Baker: And also in 1982 you were part of the England Under 21 side that won the European Championships,

[12:08] beating West Germany in the final 54 on aggregate. Because in those days it was a two legged final, wasn't it?

[12:14] To become the European champions for the first time. So please tell us more about your experience in this competition and becoming a European champion for England. Fantastic thing to achieve.

[12:24] David Hodgson: The record says that that under 21 side was the first team to ever win anything after the 66 World cup team. I believe that's true. Yeah, yeah, I heard that stat.

[12:33] I never really delved in to Receive it was actual fact. But listen, the kids that were available back then,

[12:39] I sometimes look here and think, hold on here I got well actually I started in the first leg and come off with a knee injury which I thought I wouldn't have recovered for and being able to be available for the second leg.

[12:50] But I think once the squad's name, the squad is named. So I was on the bench for the second leg, coming on and having a big.

[12:58] Well, actually it was my creation of the goal for Paul Goddard. One is the actual game. So,

[13:04] so that obviously that was extremely pleasing but when you look back then we had, you know, Adrian Heath, Gary Shaw,

[13:11] Clive Paul Goddard, Justin Fashnew,

[13:15] Big Tomo from Coventry, Mark Haitley and honestly there was so many strikers available at that time. So in a way I'm quite.

[13:26] Things don't sort of, you know, make me feel extremely proud as such. But when I look back and look at the players that I kept out of that,

[13:34] that stone 11 in theory for X amount of games and yeah, I'm pretty happy with that for sure.

[13:40] But yeah, so the first leg obviously at main road at Sheffield United Ground, Bramble Lane,

[13:47] we comfortably won.

[13:49] And going into the second leg, basically a draw was sufficient. Unfortunately Litboski, who was then a German sensation,

[14:00] showed up on his home soil and we were suddenly back to the point where they were going to win on a weird difference, goal difference.

[14:08] So I think it was maybe 30 minutes,

[14:11] 30, 35 minutes in the second half. I got, I went on the pitch.

[14:14] I actually think I remember I potentially nearly give a penalty away.

[14:19] My little Sammy Lee absolutely blast me. And Sammy was a teammate of mine from Liverpool at this point.

[14:25] But yeah, he was a penalty away which it didn't happen obviously. And then maybe five or six months later I got a throw in somewhere in my own half and went to the ball.

[14:34] Two, two defenders came with me. I let it go between my legs, turned them, obviously they're out of the game.

[14:41] Made a, you know, the dart towards the goal area. Paul Goddard was the left and. And to this day, thank God it was Paul as well by the way because yeah, the only thing, he was a great finisher.

[14:52] So calm, very collective. And I remember rolling the ball across the face, the goal for me had a touch and dropped in the bottom corner. Game over. They would then have to score two to obviously to win the thing and that was never going to happen that stage in a game.

[15:04] So it's great,

[15:07] great moment for, for, for England in theory. Okay, we beat Germany which is at the time 60, 16, 1 against Germany. We beat Germany.

[15:19] We beat them on their home ground, which was a great, A great achievement by incredible group of players, you know. Incredible group.

[15:26] Lord Russell Baker: Absolutely. And. And of course that, that side you were in, it was always seen as the feeder for the, for the first, you know, the senior national side, isn't it? But of course it never really produced anything, did it?

[15:36] I mean, I don't know why. I mean probably some of the managers we had didn't, didn't exercise,

[15:42] you know,

[15:43] good conditions for the players. Didn't choose the right side, the right players. I don't know.

[15:47] David Hodgson: But I don't know. I know he gone with the question now. When I look back at that team.

[15:52] Lord Russell Baker: Yeah.

[15:52] David Hodgson: You'd like to think comfortably maybe, I don't know, half of them could have potentially broken into the, the. The full England squad as kids.

[16:04] Lord Russell Baker: Definitely.

[16:05] David Hodgson: Actually this is, this is true fight as well. A member for the 82. Would it be 1982 World cup or 1987 4. 78. 78. 82.

[16:20] Lord Russell Baker: 82. Yes.

[16:21] David Hodgson: I had to hand my passport into the FAA so I technically couldn't book my holidays until the squad was announced.

[16:30] Lord Russell Baker: Yeah.

[16:31] David Hodgson: And that's probably about this close as I got to the full national team. So I handed my passport in,

[16:37] had to wait,

[16:38] didn't get selected, obviously got my passport returned to me or whatever it may be. And then of course I then went away on. On. On vacation. I went to America actually.

[16:47] And so at one point I was maybe just. Just on the verge of being caught for the national team. When I look back, I think I'm trying to remember. I remember Paul Marner being one of the main strikers at the time.

[17:02] People like that too.

[17:04] They were also at the top of the game at that point in their career, you know.

[17:07] Lord Russell Baker: Yeah.

[17:08] And of course our England side then in 82 was A. Was a fantastic side. And I do remember it as well. I was out in, in Spain, I believe, wasn't it the 82 World cup and England were the only side in history now to bowl out of the World cup without losing a game.

[17:22] David Hodgson: Without losing a game, not winning any.

[17:24] Lord Russell Baker: Yeah, but they, they had two league structures, didn't they? And I think they won the first league structure. Beating France in the opening game and convincingly win structure. And then they went up against Germany and forget where the other side was now in the second league phrase.

[17:41] Drew both their games and went out on goal difference. So they didn't lose a match but went out of the World cup first time ever in History.

[17:48] David Hodgson: Yeah, I mean I don't think I would exist today. That's what insane. I'm watching World cup right now and there's about 50 teams involved and it's like absolutely.

[17:56] Lord Russell Baker: I think it was Germany and Spain they. They got drawn so it was a tough group in that second round but there we go. That's life. Isn't that football?

[18:04] Lots of chances I seem to remember as well against Germany didn't take them and England came home.

[18:09] David Hodgson: Yeah. On the pitch. Yeah.

[18:12] Lord Russell Baker: It's a shame you didn't go wasn't it David? Really. But you must have felt really.

[18:15] David Hodgson: Listen I would have pointed a bit but yeah I would have loved to have played for you.

[18:21] Of course I mean that's that. That goes without saying. I think Bobby Robson once done a.

[18:27] A northeast select team especially and I got selected for that at the time which obviously I was privileged. So yeah I was, I was knocked on the door but just knocked the door just didn't open.

[18:37] Lord Russell Baker: Yeah it's a shame. It's a real shame. But then Again then in August 1982 you arrived at Liverpool as an England under 21 international and European champion of course. So fantastic arrival seemingly having a bright future ahead in the game.

[18:52] A huge move moving to what was one of the greatest football clubs in the world.

[18:57] Who just kept winning everything at the time, didn't they? God, it's amazing. I mean please tell us more about the Liverpool move. You must have been excited, nervous and a little overawed.

[19:06] Really big club.

[19:08] David Hodgson: I'm going to tell you the truth and I've said this on many occasions and there's no point telling anything at the time when I got asked to go I said no right and.

[19:20] Lord Russell Baker: Honest opinion.

[19:21] David Hodgson: The, the decision to join Middlesbrough as opposed to it's in way similar terms Liverpool is one where it's. It's a decision made upon football related success knowing if you go.

[19:39] However I was also very happy in middles of football club Happiness takes a lot to be achieved.

[19:47] Lord Russell Baker: Yes.

[19:48] David Hodgson: And I in my head thought well I've just signed a four year contract. Why do I need to leave Middlesbrough to go to Liverpool? I didn't when I was a young kid said I'll be a football player.

[20:00] I didn't. I hear these people this dream, that dream.

[20:03] I only had a desire to be a football player. What came for me was what it was going to be.

[20:11] I didn't oh I want to play for England. Oh I want to play in a cup. No, I just wanted to be a football player and I was and I wanted to be where I was happy and I was happy.

[20:21] So why should I be forced having just signed a four year deal to be sold to Liverpool because Middleton Football Club needed the transfer fee in order to keep the club going.

[20:33] And that was the key all and end all of it.

[20:36] So on rejecting it in theory at first,

[20:41] Harold Shebbetson who was England assistant manager in the 66 World cup who today would be classed as sporting director was a wonderful man. And he came and he sat and he spoke to me and he was actually the one who drove me down to.

[20:58] To Liverpool.

[21:01] So yeah,

[21:02] I was given this incredible opportunity. Everybody around me was saying you've got to grow.

[21:07] My father was etc. Etc. But truthfully in my heart I would have really been happy if I'd hadn't been faced with that and was able to stay at Middlesbrough at the time.

[21:17] But okay, it wasn't meant to be. So the dis decision was made and of course I take the. The chance to. To go to a club like Liverpool Football Club.

[21:27] Lord Russell Baker: And what a chance too. And you did settle in nicely of course as well.

[21:32] Scoring four goals in your first six games. That must have settled you in quite nicely for Liverpool flourishing alongside. Now I've got to make these names loud Kenny, Dale Gleesh and Ian Rush.

[21:43] I mean crikey, you play at a total of 37 matches in your first season scoring nine goals in total. What a start.

[21:50] David Hodgson: David, to be honest with you that nine goals is a shock by the way because I wasn't a goal scorer and I probably would have played a hell of a lot more had it not been for one a knee injury.

[22:00] I picked up in a.

[22:02] In a. In a charity game on behalf of John Craggs at Middlesford Football Club. I went back to help to play this charity game and then getting done a knee ligament injury which cost me four, four or five games.

[22:16] And then of course going to Liverpool.

[22:19] The history of players signing that tend to spend one year, two years in the reserves to learn the. The philosophy of Liverpool before you break in the first team.

[22:27] And there was not many I don't think who went. Kenny obviously blame Souness. Yeah I know that Mark Ronson did where they've come from a club to Liverpool and got in straight away.

[22:36] So I go to. I go off to potentially a great start and nine goals is probably more scored probably more for Liverpool than I did for. For Burton any one season that's for sure.

[22:48] I just truthfully to this day I just don't understand why,

[22:55] how it happened that when Joe took over, Joe Fagan,

[23:00] as you said, you have 39, 40 games and put. I would have been on the bench and quite a few games away. So there was only 45 games a season.

[23:08] So I know I was on the book at least four or five of those games as well.

[23:11] So I was possibly in that stone 11 stroke, 12 for probably 90% of the games.

[23:17] So I don't know where it went wrong that Joe felt that he had to go and sign Michael Robinson, who end up being a very close friend. I mean, he's no longer with us and he went on sadly and for some reason my,

[23:32] my seat, my. My career. Liverpool sort of like was incredible and it came to a complete stop and to this day I, I don't understand how that happened, but look at it did at the end of the day.

[23:45] Yeah, yeah, of course.

[23:46] But.

[23:46] Lord Russell Baker: But what was it like playing alongside the greats such as Kenny Dalglish and Ian Rush? We're both prolific players. Weren't they awesome?

[23:54] David Hodgson: What, what people see is people see the name Kenny Dalglish and people see the name Ian Rush. What they don't see is the actual human beings of what these guys are.

[24:04] They, they,

[24:06] they were as down to earth as you're going to find in any changing room.

[24:13] Kenny and I was very close with Roshi. We traveled in together regular. We both lived on what we called inside the water and the world.

[24:20] So we end up being extremely good friends during that period of time.

[24:24] Kenny took me under his wing and the fact is that everything that I need to do in terms of buying the house and all the stuff that goes with it, he literally helped with everything,

[24:35] everything.

[24:37] He sorted my boot, deal out with puma, et cetera, et cetera.

[24:41] Lord Russell Baker: I mean, how decent is that?

[24:42] David Hodgson: Just, that's just how he is as a human being.

[24:47] Lord Russell Baker: So wonderful.

[24:48] David Hodgson: See,

[24:48] they're in awe of Kenny. Yes. Don't get me wrong, and rightly so, as a player,

[24:53] but as a person,

[24:55] he's just the same as everybody else and if not better because of how he is as a character. But yeah,

[25:02] so I never went.

[25:04] I didn't go in that change room truthfully,

[25:07] and was in awe of anything. I just wasn't.

[25:11] I'd already played against them two or three times.

[25:13] I knew Graham Suness, I knew Craig Johnson, I knew Sammy Lee from previous with England, etc. So I wasn't going in as a complete stranger.

[25:25] And yeah, it was pretty easy to settle in. Truthfully. It was, yeah.

[25:29] Lord Russell Baker: Well, that's good to Hear and then you settled in very well at all indeed.

[25:33] And Bob Paisley of course your manager at Liverpool was very similar in many ways to John Neil, your previous manager at Middlesbrough and I think you said at the time, and I quote, Bob was a very quiet gentleman and never said much in the dressing room before we went out but very quietly under his breath though he might be muttering get them effing beat.

[25:54] And that's all you heard. I mean tell us more about Bob Paisley.

[25:57] David Hodgson: I mean there's some Liverpool greats can tell you real stories about what Bob was like as a person. Yes, more so Kenny's document. Document he's on the moment and he speaks so, so, so highly.

[26:09] Nobody,

[26:10] nobody could not see anything. But I'll tell you a little story with Bob which is extremely.

[26:16] Lord Russell Baker: Please do.

[26:18] David Hodgson: There was a reporter at the time called John Gibson, big reporter in the northeast of England and he came down to do an interview with me and I can picture as it was yesterday and I'm walking out from the change rooms to Gordon have the first session in the morning and John Gibson was in the middle,

[26:35] Bob was his to his right and I was to his left and, and he turned to Bob and said, or to the gaff at the time and said well Bob,

[26:42] how's, how's Odg settled in?

[26:45] And Bob Paisley's response was the following. He used to speak with a real strange North Geordie accent.

[26:53] Well John, let me tell you this and I can't swear but Bob used to swear terribly by the way, I may add.

[26:59] Lord Russell Baker: Yeah, I'm sure he did.

[27:01] David Hodgson: He'd go down that wing at 100 miles an hour.

[27:05] He could pick Rushy out but yet he can't hit two sticks that don't move so long as you kill me. So he basically said you can go down the line to 100 miles an hour, drop it off his head like a pinpoint or whatever but yet he kind of,

[27:26] he's. He kind of hit the ball between two sticks that don't move,

[27:30] which probably is not the right thing to say in terms of giving somebody confidence, but just cried with laughter and in a way it was, it was so funny but that's what he's must been thinking.

[27:43] So that must have been one of the things that Liverpool must have thought.

[27:46] You know we've got this kid here who can beat you for fun,

[27:49] can drop it on a knee on a, on a sixpence back in the day,

[27:53] but yet why hasn't he got that composure to finish or put a ball between Two sticks that don't move. And there's probably a valid point in that quite possible such a way it was humorous, it was funny.

[28:09] One of those moments that kills you.

[28:13] Lord Russell Baker: But you, you did win the first division League championship in both your seasons at Liverpool in 1983 and 1980 plus you received the European cup medal as a substitute. When Liverpool won the European cup in Rome that year.

[28:27] Liverpool won for a fourth time in a penalty shootout in the final against Roma. I mean the game finished 1:1. I mean this is what dreams are made of, aren't they David?

[28:37] David Hodgson: The dreams are made of if you technically, if you start or you get on that pitch, you know.

[28:40] Lord Russell Baker: Yes, of course.

[28:42] David Hodgson: Unfortunately I'm trying to think.

[28:46] Got injured quite early on in the game but they kept him on because of his, his presence and his voice etc, etc.

[28:52] Kenny got injured late on in the game and Michael went on. If I remember rightly, Michael might have gone on. Mike Robinson went on. Yes.

[29:00] And that opportunity to be on the pitch didn't arise.

[29:03] Listen, I have no columns with that at the end of the day because what's important was that Liverpool Football club won the game and she lifted the trophy again.

[29:13] Being part of it was incredible. Would have liked the pitch. Absolutely. You would love to say I actually physically played.

[29:21] I have to basically say I was part of.

[29:25] But yeah, it was incredible. And the big Roma in.

[29:29] In Rome in their back in theory.

[29:32] Lord Russell Baker: And was out of ground.

[29:33] David Hodgson: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think Alan. Well I did score and can. He scored the winner. I mean which, which club would throw up a fullback, a left fullback that would score the winning goal for his team in two European cup finals.

[29:45] Which I'll be.

[29:46] Lord Russell Baker: Exactly.

[29:47] David Hodgson: Which is incredible.

[29:48] And obviously the win penalty was. It was the main one.

[29:51] So no, listen, I was very, very fortunate to be part of a very, very, very good team, an incredible team and be part of the celebrations that took place that night was like wow.

[30:03] Amazing. Incredible.

[30:04] Lord Russell Baker: Yeah,

[30:05] absolutely. And as you. As you said previously when fellow striker Michael Robinson arrived at Liverpool Liverpool, your game time was few and far between and you demanded a move.

[30:15] Sunderland were interested but boss Joe Fagan had told you to speak to him first before signing anything. Fair enough.

[30:24] However, you signed for Sunderland in 1984 and Joe Fagan was furious.

[30:28] So tell us about this episode. Apparently you were going to replace Sammy Lee at some point.

[30:33] David Hodgson: Well,

[30:35] we finished the end of season two and we.

[30:39] And at this point I'd already requested a transfer on 20 something occasions Michael used to write them out for me. The transfer request.

[30:46] Yes Whom it may concern to the board of directors,

[30:51] to the manager, he used to write them all out. He was super. Michael was super, super intelligent.

[30:56] And Joe pulled me in at Melwood training ground.

[31:00] I went the same on my own. There was nobody, we weren't training and.

[31:05] And he said, listen,

[31:07] we've been thinking, we're looking to think we could potentially change your position and make you a better player for it.

[31:19] And he brought up a midfield role, the right side. Well, in my opinion,

[31:25] Sammy Lee had that nailed down as good as anybody would ever have.

[31:30] In addition to that, like I pointed out the very, very beginning of interview,

[31:34] my desire was to play football and enjoy it. I never had in my mind that I would ever want to play football and take the role of a very, very good friend.

[31:45] And I looked at it in that way and I did reply to him, well, Sammy plays there. And he said, well, that's not your concern.

[31:52] Which valid point, it wasn't my concern, but that's just how I was as a human. That's how I thought about it.

[31:59] Lord Russell Baker: Yes.

[31:59] David Hodgson: So I basically didn't agree with what Joe was trying to tell me.

[32:06] So then obviously that was the end of the season. Then we had pre season, then we had the Charity Shield at Wembley against Everton. And I actually said to Joe,

[32:17] 10, 15 minutes ago,

[32:19] you got to put me on.

[32:20] Because we got that day.

[32:22] And I felt I could have had an impact in the game, I didn't get on.

[32:25] So when we returned from, from Wembley on the Monday morning,

[32:30] I went in to see him for the first week of the season and I said, gaffer, you've got to let me go. And he actually said, where do you want to go?

[32:38] I said,

[32:39] sunderland. Look, I knew Sunderland wanted to sign me, okay? So, yeah,

[32:43] Bush, of course.

[32:44] So he basically got Sheila, which was his pa. Sheila, ring Sunland.

[32:49] Sheila rang Sunland,

[32:51] I'm sitting in the office, I can actually hear this.

[32:54] And.

[32:55] And then she said,

[32:57] joe or boss? She called him, boss, I've got Len Ashurst on the phone. And he went, hodgie,

[33:04] take the call.

[33:06] So I looked at him and thought,

[33:07] that's not really for me to do. He said, you want to go to Sunderland, you take the call.

[33:12] So I took the call, spoke to Len,

[33:16] he asked me if I wanted to come. He knew I wanted to come, so that was the silly question, of course, blah, blah, blah. So then I left at that and left the office.

[33:22] Joe said, right,

[33:23] go to Twin and I'll have a chat with you later on. Of course, no mobile phones. Those Days.

[33:29] No dude,

[33:30] there was a message on the ants machine.

[33:33] David, it's your gaffer. Give me a call please when you pick this up. So I rang him up in the afternoon. Hi gaffer Hodgie.

[33:40] Right. I'm allowing you to go to Sunland.

[33:42] They want you there for 9 o' clock tomorrow morning.

[33:45] But I want you to promise me you do not sign a contract until you talk with me properly.

[33:54] Okay, that's fine. Anyway as it happens the.

[33:58] The.

[33:59] The meeting was changed from 9 o' clock till 7 o' clock in the morning and drive to Rock. I was actually I went to my parents house so I drove to Rock in the morning at 7.

[34:09] Wow. And sat down with Lenny grade the figures. I actually took a 50% wage cut to go home. I had two years left at Liverpool and I took a two year deal at Sunland on half of my wage.

[34:23] So I wanted to go back home. Okay. Sunland was my team as a kid and I agreed to sign actually I did sign of course and then I ranked the gaffer and said hi gaffer Todi,

[34:36] I've signed.

[34:38] And his only words were you've just made the biggest mistake of your life son and I wish you well and put the phone down.

[34:46] Lord Russell Baker: Yeah.

[34:47] David Hodgson: Didn't explain why I'd made the biggest decision in life or anything of the sort and truthfully it went on to haunt me later on in life. I had a little bit of a concern about them comments.

[34:59] It sort of plagued me for a long, long, long time. But anyways I made decision signed exactly that was it.

[35:06] I was now a Sunland player.

[35:08] Lord Russell Baker: And you were apparently going to replace Sammy Lee, weren't you? I think that was the.

[35:13] David Hodgson: That potentially was as part of the discussion because he.

[35:18] Joe made a point of saying that he would like to see me playing on the right and the quiz thing what just gone to. But Sam, it was England something England international because he did not come to the end of season trip to South Africa where I played right side midfield in front of Mark Ronson who played right back for the three games against Spurs.

[35:39] I think we're two or three games against spurs and he came out that comment and didn't make sense. But as it happens little Sammy left about a year later.

[35:50] I think Craig Johnston might have nailed down that. That's that part of the pitch if I remember rightly.

[35:59] Lord Russell Baker: I think you're right. It was Craig Johnson.

[36:01] David Hodgson: Whatever Liverpool were thinking at the time reference to little Sammy I really don't know. He was a.

[36:07] He was a Liverpool player. If There ever was one he just never give a ball away.

[36:12] Okay. Sammy wasn't quick was he tall? Could he get the end? No but he had incredible. Anyway the bottom line was that was sort of thrown at me and as far as I was in it was never ever ever going to happen.

[36:24] Never.

[36:25] Lord Russell Baker: Yeah and so you probably made the right decision. Now this is a funny story I've got to say when I dug this up on my research it did make me chuckle.

[36:34] When you left Liverpool for Sunderland Roy Evans sent you a glass trophy and they'd inscribed on it good luck you old bugger. A term of endearment I'm sure But what was your view at the time to this interesting trophy?

[36:47] Have you still got it?

[36:48] David Hodgson: I've still got it actually it was men it was a Liverpool had had the made it was a 33 yes case European Cup League and Milk up on. On on the actual plaque and I got a call and New Sunland were.

[37:08] Sorry Liverpool were playing Newcastle St James's park and I got asked if I could go to the game.

[37:14] I had to go to the changing room before the match which I did and they were waiting for me the staff. Roy Joe,

[37:23] Ronnie Moran was Kenny man you know Sweet B Joe was a manager. Yeah and. And. And Roy Evans and they presented me in the change room this big box thing which I owned.

[37:38] You can but the road on the top which you point Good luck you're old bug. It goes back to a story when Liverpool went to Israel before the European cup final and an almighty fracas took off.

[37:54] Incredible. In today's world social media would have would have had a field day. But anyway this particular incident took place and there was a director called Mr. Moss a wonderful gentleman, very well spoken, very articulate.

[38:10] We found ourselves which was myself,

[38:13] Alan Kennedy and Ian Rush if I remember rightly three of us well past the point of no return when it come down to the alcohol aspect of it on the floor clamoring around outside of the hotel trying to get up and suddenly this gentleman appeared which was Mr.

[38:31] Moss director and basically said and the time my history of being a Liverpool football club never have I witnessed such a incident as this. And at which point then I said to try and grab a hold of his legs and claw my way up his body in the same time you know,

[38:46] pulling his trousers down and when I did get up I put my arm around him and said Moss your old booger.

[38:53] You're just like the rest of us.

[38:55] Yeah that it stuck okay. It was just me being polite to this Particular gentleman who was a director in the nicest I possibly could.

[39:05] And Liverpool found great humor in that and they wrote that on the box which they give to me and to be honest, I've still got it to this day.

[39:13] Lord Russell Baker: Wonderful. It's a fantastic story, isn't it? Really is a fantastic story and shows the humor that can go around on.

[39:20] David Hodgson: Football clubs particularly especially you know, we're talking about directors who have been at Liverpool football club for 20, 30 years before my arrival and, and, and. And witnessed some of the greatest players ever like the Keanes,

[39:33] Homie Smith, etc. Etc.

[39:35] But yet for him to,

[39:39] to make a point of it, you know, being part of the Liverpool football club never went the same thing in his life. But then the next day he was such an incredible gentleman.

[39:47] Hence the reason why we've seen the funny side of it and hence the reason why they brought that on the big trophy for me when, when I went to pick it up at St.

[39:53] James's Park.

[39:54] Lord Russell Baker: Yeah, fantastic story. It really is an absolute legend of a story that one. I've got to say it was incredible.

[40:00] And then of course at Sunderland he was on the losing side to my local club here of course Norwich city in the 1985 League Cup Final going down 1 nil.

[40:09] A good cup run. But a disappointing final at Wembley for Sunderland.

[40:14] David Hodgson: Disappointing Wembley. Yeah it was, it was called the, the, the, the friendly final or something. I think it was something to do with the. Was incredible.

[40:24] Lord Russell Baker: I think it was.

[40:25] David Hodgson: Yeah it went, it went down history as, as something like that. The crazy thing was we'd actually beat Norwich a week earlier by the way at Carroll Road and the, the.

[40:37] It was two weeks earlier. Yeah, a week, a week early I think.

[40:40] So a week leading up to Wembley the team was selected.

[40:45] We done all the work on the pitch. We were ready. Were we confident? Absolutely. On the back of just beating them by the way.

[40:52] And then on the morning of the final, the morning off or two hours before we due to leave,

[41:00] then Ashurst,

[41:03] for what reason I have no. Even to this day none of us ever found out.

[41:07] Basically went round the rooms, went to Colin Westroom who was starting telling Colin that he wasn't even playing, he wasn't even on the bench.

[41:17] And obviously that quickly run round, you know,

[41:20] to the bedrooms.

[41:22] Gas changed the team.

[41:24] West is not playing, he's not even on the bench.

[41:26] Lord Russell Baker: Big mistake.

[41:27] David Hodgson: Changed all the system, changed the shape of the team on the morning of the game, not three days prior where we had time to accept it and, and, and come to Terms with it.

[41:37] Lord Russell Baker: Why did you do that you think?

[41:38] David Hodgson: We don't know.

[41:39] Lord Russell Baker: Disaster. We.

[41:40] David Hodgson: We honestly don't know. We have no idea why that, why that happened whatsoever.

[41:47] So yeah the morale took a dip, big dip on the morning of the game.

[41:54] It rolled on in the game. I should have scored after 20 seconds.

[41:58] I had a strike from about five yards into the, in the oranges half and it beat Chris woods but it hit crossbar. Oh we probably could have. We'd scored then obviously that year.

[42:09] Never know what's going to happen. Could have changed dramatically but we just didn't get there. We missed a penalty and of course who was our penalty taker? Colin west who scored three goals leading up to Wembley.

[42:20] Colin West.

[42:21] And then the penalty was bestowed on Clive Walker who actually was a great finisher in Mead and he missed it.

[42:27] So all of the,

[42:28] all of the bad vibes or the fate dealt its card that day to son of football club and actually I was the demise of the club because we got relegated if I remember rightly and it took a long time for the club to recover.

[42:44] Lord Russell Baker: Yeah I do remember because I'm a Chelsea fan. So I was actually on a Chelsea supporters coach in the semi finals up at Roker park and we went down two nil.

[42:55] You beat Chelsea two nil on that evening and I had that desperate hurty long trip back to Stamford Bridge and I fought in the final.

[43:05] When you hit the bar and Clive Walker missed a penalty I thought perhaps maybe someone somewhere was saying we had all that luck against Chelsea. It's all faded away now.

[43:14] But.

[43:16] David Hodgson: We batted Chelsea.

[43:17] Lord Russell Baker: Yeah, I know you did absolutely you Walker Park.

[43:21] David Hodgson: I think it was 2 nil there. I think we even won remember rightly in the second leg I, I simply remember. I think Colum west scored, I actually think I crossing top of a horse while it was on the pinch because of the, the.

[43:35] The violence that was taking place that day.

[43:37] So you know, don't get me wrong,

[43:40] yeah spurs, we carried a little bit of luck down at their ground of course but we've done a job on them up here at Rocker Park. Went to spurs, beat them, then went down.

[43:48] Chelsea beat them as well. So we beat all luck sides on the way. We beat Watford,

[43:54] Chelsea, Spurs.

[43:56] So the only team we didn't beat was the Norfolk side on the big day.

[44:00] Lord Russell Baker: Yeah, absolutely. And of course Clive Walker scored at Stamford Bridge against Chelsea net semi final. Ex Chelsea player. Of course that didn't go down very well. I do remember there was a lot of sad sadly a lot of violence Afterwards wasn't there enduring.

[44:14] It was a tough, tough day really.

[44:17] David Hodgson: A lot of violence.

[44:19] The police and the referee actually said to us and back was mad but she told with mouth if anybody looks at middle of the halfway line.

[44:44] Yeah the game was taking place down that side and we had to obviously leave the pinch very, very quickly. Yeah, yeah, I remember right. Yeah they were trying to turn our team bus over at one point.

[44:55] Yeah that was back in the day when it was all skins and violence, you know. Yeah. Awful dance. Yeah.

[45:00] Lord Russell Baker: Yeah it was an awful night. But a great result for you yourselves and of course sad one at Wembley against Norwich. But further disappointment awaited of course at the end of the season when you said earlier that Sunden were relegated strangely enough though alongside with Norwich City.

[45:15] So both the. The Milk cup finalists went down that year. I mean how did you feel at the time the relegation as a shocking. Well, I know you mentioned earlier on a big, big, big, big problem for Sunderland going down.

[45:25] That really was wasn't it?

[45:29] David Hodgson: Well yeah because Sunland at one point, I mean I remember speaking to Sammy Lee trying to convince Sammy to come Sunderland from Liverpool which Sammy was actually was receptive to Alan Kennedy when she came over.

[45:42] So at the time Sunland were in the bit like they are now in the Premier League was sitting in a great position,

[45:50] fifth or sixth in the.

[45:51] Yeah, absolutely. And it just. The coup run started and the league form disintegrated and that's exactly what happened, you know and but as you say already. So yeah, two sides went down and Norwich came up because I went.

[46:04] I signed for Norwich when I left sun at the end of me two years in Sunland you did and I went and signed for Norwich who then back in the Premier League or not Premier league but Division 1 back in the day.

[46:15] Lord Russell Baker: So yeah,

[46:16] yeah as you say you did get a. A free transfer to Norwich City but. And interestingly choosing. And it goes back to how you choose your decisions choosing the Canaries over a similarly lucrative move to Sweden's IFK Gothenburg who incidentally then went on to win the UEFA Cup.

[46:35] I mean you must have had mixed feelings about that.

[46:39] David Hodgson: I had.

[46:40] I had two or three very good opportunities. Qpr Jim Smith had gotten touch with me. They offered me an incredible deal financially incredible.

[46:49] I have here Gotham was where to be honest he had gone out and. And I felt that that might have been probably a move. I look back and think should I have done it and wish I had of at the time but I got wind that Laurie Mack had some influence about me Going to IFK Gothenburg and I don't know is it was a reason basically to get me out of England.

[47:17] I'm not too sure. But anyway,

[47:19] the bottom line is I don't wind of that and that's the reason why I turned down IFK Gothenburg.

[47:28] Right then I also got wind that and Laurie said don't touch him and I found that so hard to accept. So truthfully,

[47:41] I signed for Norwich for one year when I had issues at IFKA Gothenburg. Incredible offer by Jim Smith at Cubic where to be honest with you, had I gone there, Sammy Lee eventually turned up there, Michael Robinson turned up there.

[47:56] So two lads who I knew super well and them both.

[48:00] So I probably the time should have gone I E to qbr,

[48:03] but I didn't. I chose Norwich out of sheer spite and again instead of following the head, I followed my heart and said no, I'm going to go there and prove a certain person wrong.

[48:14] And listen, the fact that I met Brian Gunn, who happens to be one of my closest friends in life to this day, then of course I made a reasonably good decision.

[48:28] Other than that I made the wrong one when it came down to football.

[48:32] Lord Russell Baker: Yeah, no, I absolutely agree. And of course after Norwich City you transferred back to Middlesbrough loan, then off to Xerex Mets and Swansea City,

[48:41] making a.

[48:43] A total of 287 league appearances for 27 goals. So great career.

[48:48] A little bit of. Of a journeyman at the end of your playing career, David. But I'm sure you enjoyed every moment. Some great memories too. I can, I can, I can, I can believe.

[49:02] David Hodgson: So we'll rewind the clock.

[49:04] I never want.

[49:06] Didn't want to go to Liverpool but by the time I'd come out of contract at Norwich, truthfully I just.

[49:14] I just wanted to get away from English football. I.

[49:18] I'd lost. I'd lost some desire, I'd lost a purpose of want to achieve anything as such. And, and that was only because that's just how I am as a human being and how I deal with people.

[49:29] So going off to Spain was.

[49:31] Was a incredible experience. I mean, okay, great experience. One, I never got paid for 11 months wasn't particularly good.

[49:39] Secondly, I got stitched up because I actually thought I was saying for cadiz and I wasn't.

[49:44] So hence I should have took an agent with me and I'd done my own deal,

[49:47] so that didn't go down too well.

[49:50] Three,

[49:52] being out there not getting paid for 11 months and then making the decision that do I play or not play? If you get your leg Broken. The chances are you're not going to get your medicals taken care of.

[50:02] That was all those little things going on.

[50:04] So then I decided at the end of the one year in Spain and I forgot about another two clubs in Spain come after me. At the time I decided to return home.

[50:14] I was originally signing for Frank Burroughs, who was my coach at Sunland under Laurie Mack and under Len Ashes.

[50:24] And I was joining Frank again out of sheer one. I loved Frank to death. He's no longer with us, unfortunately. Yeah, Sadly,

[50:32] I was joining Frank basically to again give like Lori,

[50:39] like a slap in the face in theory, because here was a guy who was at Sunderland during all of my time, but yet he was going out incredible lengths financially to get me to go and sign for Cardiff.

[50:50] Now, I'll tell you the truth,

[50:52] I was on my way.

[50:54] I was going out with a girl in Manchester at the time the train broke down.

[51:02] I didn't make the press conference at Cardiff.

[51:06] So when Frank came to meet me at the station on Jimmy,

[51:10] Jimmy Goodfella was Frank's assistant,

[51:13] came to meet me, who I knew very well and said, look at the press conference is organized for tomorrow.

[51:19] Frank's going to come and see in the hotel later on for Sunday week and have a chat with you, which was great. So I missed this press conference, went to the hotel,

[51:28] Frank turns up,

[51:30] we were talking and he sent the lady on reception,

[51:36] don't let any calls come through to him tonight,

[51:40] blah, blah, blah. And I said, frank, there's only one call. I'm waiting for Brian Gunn to ring me, who was then my apartment partner in theory. We lived in the same apartment as me together.

[51:51] And then he rang me and he said, right,

[51:53] the team that's been ringing because this particular team had called to my house in Norwich for about four or five times,

[52:02] eventually confirmed who they are. They wouldn't let. They wouldn't say who they were.

[52:06] And he said, it's Howard Wilkinson from Sheffield Wednesday.

[52:09] Right. Told this to Frank at dinner that night. I said, oh, by the way, Chef would have been on. Rang the gunny,

[52:16] desperate, want to want me to go up there and meet them.

[52:19] Frank said, you've got to go, Hodgie.

[52:22] Lord Russell Baker: Yes.

[52:23] David Hodgson: He said, hodgie,

[52:25] you've got to go.

[52:27] Yeah, it's Chef Wed. They just got promoted, they just won the league. They were back in the top flight.

[52:32] He said, you're only coming here because of me. Said, exactly.

[52:36] And we discussed, blah, blah, blah. And then the next morning,

[52:40] taxi comes to collect me and lady in reception rang up and said it was. If it was yesterday. Ms. Hudson, Frank has said, could you make sure that you pack everything because you're going to a different hotel.

[52:52] I never give it a second thought.

[52:54] Packed everything up, put everything in my case,

[52:57] went outside, had breakfast. Taxi picks me up and I'm thinking, I'm off to the stadium at Ninian park at Cardiff and actually sign for. And I sit the taxi driver, excuse me, where are we going?

[53:08] And he said, oh,

[53:10] I'm taking you to the train station.

[53:13] Why?

[53:14] I'm going to Ninian Park. I'm signing. No, no, my instructions take you. And I pulled up at the train station and who's waiting for me? Frank Burroughs.

[53:22] Lord Russell Baker: Wow.

[53:23] David Hodgson: He walks up the taxi, I get out, he gives me a hug and he said, right, listen,

[53:29] telephone. Now you gotta go and ring Howard, there's your train ticket, I bought it for you and you're gone. And I stood for about 10 minutes and arguing, he said, okay, I will not sign yet.

[53:39] Cardiff.

[53:41] Just get on that train and go to Sheffield Wednesday.

[53:44] Now,

[53:46] that was, at the time, probably the worst thing that I thought was going to happen to me,

[53:50] but truthfully,

[53:53] six weeks later,

[53:55] meet my wife.

[53:56] So for me, it was the best thing that could ever, ever.

[54:01] So what turned out to be what I thought was going to be something that would get me football life back on, turned out not the case. But to go to Sheffield and meet my wife and.

[54:12] And for which case, that was the best train delay I've ever had.

[54:18] Lord Russell Baker: What a wonderful story. That's absolutely incredible story, David, isn't it? And say you met your wife.

[54:24] David Hodgson: I mean, 36 years still. 36 years of marriage still together. Two amazing. And all that came about because a train broke down.

[54:35] Lord Russell Baker: Some things are meant to happen, aren't they?

[54:37] David Hodgson: Well, yeah, that's how I look at it. Yeah, it was 100%. That's. It was meant to be.

[54:42] Lord Russell Baker: Yeah,

[54:42] it was meant to be. Yeah. Brilliant. And good luck to you both as well. I mean, it's a fantastic story. That really is a wonderful story.

[54:49] And then in 1995, you went on to manage Darlington Football Club, Darlo, as I always know them, as in more than 400 matches. In fact, free spells as manager from 1995 through to 2006.

[55:02] I mean, how did you take to management?

[55:04] What was it like at Darlington?

[55:06] David Hodgson: It was crazy because there was a gentleman called Barry Gelno who was Kenny Daglish's head of. Well, not head, recruitment, head scout, he was called back then.

[55:15] Lord Russell Baker: Yes.

[55:15] David Hodgson: Wonderful guy who I knew he was actually at The Borough, when he got me to go from Norwich back to Borough on Lawn. So Barry was behind that.

[55:22] So he wanted to meet me at a Scotch Corner hotel, famous hotel in the north,

[55:28] to have a meeting with a young lad called Sean Gregan,

[55:32] who was then a young player at Dalton. I went to meet him at Scotch Corner,

[55:37] give this young boy, Sean, some advice about maybe signing a new deal at Dalton, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And then on the back of that conversation, the meeting with Barry,

[55:48] the chairman of Dalton,

[55:52] for some reason, had a conversation with Barry.

[55:54] And then I left Scotch Corner, got home and I got a call from Barry. He said, listen,

[56:00] would you be interested in talking to Dalton Football Club?

[56:03] And for what purpose? I said. He said, as a manager.

[56:08] And it just felt. It felt right. Even though my company was doing so, so well,

[56:16] finance was incredible.

[56:19] I decided to go and have a meeting with Dalton Football Club and I basically said it wasn't arrogance, but I did not need that job.

[56:27] And I said, I ain't coming for an interview.

[56:30] You can offer me the job now and I'll come up and I'll say, yeah, I'm taking it. I'm not taking it. It's not like it's me coming up and saying, Simon Staden, I think, was in for the job at the time as well.

[56:39] One or two others said, I'm not coming up there sitting down talking to you, and then you make a decision saying, me, no, it happened. I'm not doing that. I don't need to do it, and I'm not putting myself through that.

[56:50] So they basically offered me the job.

[56:53] And then, of course, I was due to go with Mark Proctor, who was my closest friend, or silly, is my closest friend, and he'd done a U turn, procky. And so I nearly did, and then the end, I accepted the role.

[57:06] And that was the commencement of my managerial career at Dalton.

[57:10] And it wasn't meant to be like that. I never intended to go into management, to tell you the truth. I had a great insight. But again, fit. Crazy how things come around.

[57:18] Lord Russell Baker: Oh, it is, yes.

[57:20] David Hodgson: And of course, I end up starting what would be a love affair with Dalton football club spanning 10 years or something. Yeah, yeah, it was.

[57:26] Lord Russell Baker: It's wonderful. And of course, in 2004, you wrote a book titled Three Times a Quaker, the title of this podcast talk show, of course, and your world of football and passion for Darlington Football Club, which you've just expressed, published by Speakeasy Publishing and voted, actually voted in the top 25 Northeast managers of all time.

[57:47] It sounds like a great book to read, David.

[57:49] David Hodgson: Well, do you see the book?

[57:52] The book came about mainly on the back of a very, very turbulent time with a gentleman called George Reynolds, who was then chairman football club owner, which we wouldn't have enough time to even bring all the conversation with George into this podcast.

[58:08] I mean,

[58:09] but Ray Simpson, who was a local reporter here in the Northern Echo, big, huge, huge. He's still involved with the club to this day,

[58:17] basically said, listen,

[58:19] have you ever thought about writing a book?

[58:22] He said, because what you have gone through in your time at this football club is probably never, ever, ever going to be equaled and never be equal by anybody else in football in terms of me and my fights with ownership, with owners of the clubs,

[58:37] winning battles, I may add,

[58:39] and all the other things that took place during a very, very difficult time of the football club.

[58:45] And I thought about it and we said, okay, we'll do it. I set up the speakeasy. Publishing was my company. I set that up as a publisher.

[58:53] And yeah, we set about doing the book.

[58:57] It took nearly 10 months.

[58:59] So Ray Simpson and Andrew Wilkinson, two gentlemen who were both reporters, would come to my house on a Monday.

[59:07] We'd go through the first chapter, whatever it may be, the commencement of the book. They would come back on the Wednesday,

[59:13] we'd go through it, we'd change it. What I didn't think was right or how it was come across,

[59:18] come back on the Friday,

[59:19] sit down and agree to that chapter being correct. And then we went on the next chapter and we did that for over a year.

[59:25] So the book,

[59:26] even though obviously I wrote it,

[59:30] when I did read it myself, didn't read the whole book myself. I mean, but when I looked at was me talking, yes, it wasn't a book where somebody else writes it for you.

[59:41] It was my book.

[59:42] And the words. There were my words and how I wanted to put the cross. So in a way,

[59:47] I was very, very happy with that.

[59:49] And that was one of the proudest moments of my life. Even though, yes, I played at Wembley for my hometown, for Sunland, my team I supported, yes, I've won European Cups, yes, I represented my country.

[59:59] But the morning of the book launch,

[01:00:03] I had to go to Waterstones in Darlington.

[01:00:06] And the lady said, dybak, if you could come down for about maybe quarter past nine, we'll give you breakfast.

[01:00:13] And then we'd like to start around about half past ten with a book signer. And I said, okay, nice. I got there at 9 o', clock,

[01:00:21] half past nine, the lady come up, she said, david,

[01:00:24] I'm sorry, but you're gonna have to come down immediately because we've already got a huge queue outside. And I'm telling you, she was my wife, my two daughters.

[01:00:33] Lord Russell Baker: Yes.

[01:00:34] David Hodgson: That was probably one of the proudest moments of my life. To come down the stairs and look and see a queue right out the door and. And hundreds of people, hundreds of people waiting.

[01:00:47] And I signed the books and then about quarter I had to get to the ground. I was manager of Don at the time.

[01:00:53] The police had to come and intervene because it was still hundreds wanting to get the book signed. And I had to make a promise that I would return the next day and go through it all again for the people that had been waiting for hours.

[01:01:06] And we saw in total I. We printed 5,000 copies, we sold 5,000 within two weeks, three weeks.

[01:01:15] I went to reprint, done another 3,000 and we sold only a thousand. And they never found in the bargain bucket.

[01:01:22] Which was like a great achievement.

[01:01:24] Lord Russell Baker: Absolutely, yes.

[01:01:25] David Hodgson: And the book at that point, I think someone did point it out me on LinkedIn not long ago, a year or so ago,

[01:01:31] was voted number one book of whatever over a certain period of time in the whole uk and Jeremy Clarkson was in second or third.

[01:01:40] The two ladies who were fashion girl stroke interior designers something. They were number three book or something.

[01:01:47] So, yeah, in a way I was extremely proud of that. Very important.

[01:01:50] Lord Russell Baker: Got to be proud of that. Absolutely Story.

[01:01:53] David Hodgson: Yeah.

[01:01:53] Lord Russell Baker: Brilliant.

[01:01:54] I mean that. That's. That's just an incredible end, isn't it really? I suppose to many things with your football.

[01:02:00] Football life. To finish up that book.

[01:02:02] What a great book too. I mean, awesome.

[01:02:05] David Hodgson: Yeah, yeah.

[01:02:05] Lord Russell Baker: Great stuff. Congratulations.

[01:02:07] David Hodgson: Very lucky.

[01:02:08] Lord Russell Baker: Very lucky indeed. So what is next in the world of law. Sorry? A world of David Hodgson. What's next on your.

[01:02:16] David Hodgson: My. My great passion in life has always been. I identify in place.

[01:02:23] Lord Russell Baker: Yes.

[01:02:23] David Hodgson: And I'm not arrogant. But I'll say I'll probably.

[01:02:29] If I went to a game and there was another 10 scouts, I'd probably pick the player who's the best player, who's going to be the one who would make it probably before.

[01:02:37] And the other nine will for sure. I did that for 10 years for base soccer,

[01:02:41] which are now.

[01:02:44] I've identified some of the best kids that went on to play the highest level.

[01:02:49] Lord Russell Baker: Yes.

[01:02:50] David Hodgson: And. And I can tell you a true story. I remember going out to watch a tournament in Cascades in outside of Lisbon.

[01:03:00] Lord Russell Baker: Portugal.

[01:03:01] David Hodgson: Yeah.

[01:03:02] To look at a young boy called Nicholas Norgren. Well, not to look at him. I'd actually recommended him to Middlespen. The Middlesman agreed to sign him and he was playing this tournament at under 16.

[01:03:11] And I've gone out this particular tournament to see Nicholas play and there was another kid who, who I really, really liked. Very selfish, I may add.

[01:03:23] The guy who's with me was a guy called Angelo Martins, Portuguese agent Stroke X Benfica.

[01:03:29] He was with me. And I said, listen, we need to have a chat with this kid if, if we can.

[01:03:34] I said, this, this kid's got a chance.

[01:03:37] And he had a word, blah, blah, blah. And we agreed that we were going to meet this particular boy's father and they wanted something like it was. But the currency was a school back in the time,

[01:03:48] I think it was like a hundred thousand scooters,

[01:03:50] something like that. I remember ringing back to Base Soccer to Leon angel, who was head of Base, he owned the company,

[01:03:56] said, Leon, listen, there's a kid here.

[01:03:59] If we pay the,

[01:04:00] let's say there was £25,000, but going back to 20, 15 years ago, it's a lot of money. But if we pay this sum, you have the potential of representing this young boy and I think he's got a great chance.

[01:04:12] And Leon declined on the back that I'd only seen this boy for one hour,

[01:04:18] felt it was a lot of money to shell out for a young kid and we didn't do it. And Nicholas went on to go to Middlesby signed and the other boy, the young Portuguese kid,

[01:04:31] went on to have a decent career himself.

[01:04:34] Yes,

[01:04:35] he was called Cristiano Ronaldo.

[01:04:39] Lord Russell Baker: There you go. I thought you were going to come up with that one.

[01:04:41] David Hodgson: Yeah.

[01:04:42] Lord Russell Baker: Ah, what a, what a story. That's just.

[01:04:45] David Hodgson: But he was, he was 15. He just, he had just,

[01:04:49] I think had just signed a contracted sporting, as in yts, which would have been the case because that age group and that was the boy and we didn't follow through with it and.

[01:05:02] Yeah,

[01:05:05] but listen, it's okay to say that now because it's who he is,

[01:05:10] but back then he was a 15 year old boy or 16 coming up and obviously my decision to say we should do it was solely based on the fact that this boy had amazing attitude, character,

[01:05:22] technically was very good, very selfish, I may add. Okay. There was no end product, there was no,

[01:05:28] no,

[01:05:29] no assists in theory,

[01:05:31] when he could have done. I remember, sort of vaguely remember how we played that day. But yeah, so that's what I do in life, in theory.

[01:05:38] I have two young lads who have got a company here in the Northeast and SMI group.

[01:05:43] They. I help them get started, the very, very, very, very beginning of their journey. They now look after 150 plus players.

[01:05:51] I spend a couple of hours a week in their office.

[01:05:53] They give me six, seven, eight players to look at every time and I'll say to them, yes or no,

[01:05:59] he's worth pursuing, he's not worth pursuing. So that's what I do during the day and really when I put this down now I'll be watching the Under 17 World cup on their behalf and then yeah, that's my day job in theory.

[01:06:14] Lord Russell Baker: That's good life, isn't it? It really is a good life.

[01:06:17] Continue, continue at it, Dave. It's fantastic. And I've just a quick look at the clock here. We're well just over the hour,

[01:06:24] six or seven minutes over the hour. So it's been a. That that hour just disappears so quickly when you're having a. A great conversation. It really does. Can't believe it's gone so quickly.

[01:06:34] David Hodgson: Questions you asked. Yeah, of course. Relevant and I hope the answer is given to you or.

[01:06:39] Lord Russell Baker: Oh, perfect.

[01:06:40] David Hodgson: For your podcast, but I've been really looking forward to. Obviously I'll keep an eye, I'll see you on LinkedIn. Of course it canceled once or twice because of circumstances,

[01:06:49] but no, I'm so grateful and I thank you for inviting me on for sure.

[01:06:53] Lord Russell Baker: Oh, that's been a pleasure. Do you mind hanging on whilst I wrap up David afterwards?

[01:06:58] David Hodgson: Perfect.

[01:06:58] Lord Russell Baker: Thank you.

[01:06:59] As always on the World of Lord Russell podcast talk show.

[01:07:03] We could talk forever, David. There's a lot more about your life in professional football, I'm sure, as a player,

[01:07:08] coach, manager and director of sport. Of course it's been a huge pleasure as always and as always,

[01:07:14] the pleasure is all mine and of course the show's audience when his podcast is released on the World of Lord Russell podcast talk show and the Lord Russell Baker YouTube channel.

[01:07:25] Thank you, David. Ladies and gentlemen, I'll give you David Hodgson, a big round of applause. David, it's been a wonderful having you on. Some great stories. There really are.

[01:07:33] Anyway, the next episode on the World of Lord Russell podcast talk show is Gordon the Guided Missile with Tim Stimson.

[01:07:41] He was a former Rugby union international, full back and occasional wing during Tim's career. Tim played for Wakefield, West Hartlepool, Newcastle Falcons, Leicester Tigers, Perpignan, France, of course Leeds Tykes and Nottingham, plus more notably for England and the British and Irish Lions.

[01:08:01] As always, another great show to look forward to and of course exclusive on the World of Lord Russell podcast talk show. And of course, I'm looking forward to seeing you all on the inside.

[01:08:10] So until then is au revoir from him and au revoir from me.